Skip to content or view mobile version

Home | Mobile | Editorial | Mission | Privacy | About | Contact | Help | Security | Support

A network of individuals, independent and alternative media activists and organisations, offering grassroots, non-corporate, non-commercial coverage of important social and political issues.

22 reasons. How many more mistakes?

Uncle Christ | 14.03.2011 22:07

Oh how the politicians and the scientists squirm while trying to defend nuclear power and the shadow of 500 new clear power stations - transparency, so they say.


Why the nuclear argument needs to be dealt with now.

1. We are about to set out on a program of nuclear power station construction to the scale of 500 new plants globally.

2. There is one fatal flaw in the production of nuclear power - nuclear waste.

3. Nuclear enrichment defies entropy and is reason enough, morally.

4. Another fatal flaw in the production of nuclear power - once you start it up, you can't switch it off.

5. National grid wastes more power than it uses through losses.

6. In the statistical world of nuclear, the probability is only a matter of time.

7. We don't have a choice, input or outcumb. Europe is a ticking time bomb.

A call for the disbandment of all nuclear production, research, weapons and bodies, globally. We demand a referendumb.

Nuclear Fallout, coming from a rain cloud, near you. S A.

Uncle Christ
Creative Activist (Unclear)
Anonymous Against Nuclear
United Kingdoms of Ra

Uncle Christ

Comments

Hide the following 11 comments

a bit of fact checking ...

14.03.2011 23:25

>3. Nuclear enrichment defies entropy and is reason enough, morally.

Defies entropy? Oh really? How?

4. Another fatal flaw in the production of nuclear power - once you start it up, you can't switch it off.

Oh really?

5. National grid wastes more power than it uses through losses.

Not true - and even if it were, that's an argument against electrical power transmission rather than nuclear power.

22 reasons. And you list ... 7. Okay.

'We demand a referendumb'. Well, quite.

scientist


dumbed down science

15.03.2011 00:04

>> A call for the disbandment of all nuclear production, research, weapons and bodies, globally. We demand a referendumb.

Cool... well you tell Iran and Korea that and see how far you get
I think they will just ignore you whatever you "demand"

tobi


filling in fact instead of myths

15.03.2011 01:25

"5. National grid wastes more power than it uses through losses. "
Why do so many so called climate activists believe this sort of idea?
The true figure took about a minute to find out. Prepare to be amazed:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(UK)#Losses

another scientist


Those 22 reasons in full

15.03.2011 04:22

8. er ...
9. That's it.

Referendumb - I and I is urban innit?


National Grid Wastage Clarification

15.03.2011 10:14

'Furthermore, the efficiency of nuclear power plants is lower than that of conventional power plants - in a nuclear power plant only about 30% of the thermal energy released is converted into electrical energy, whereas in a modern conventional power plant about 40% of the thermal energy of coal or oil is converted into electrical energy.'

Taken from Interlude V.4, Physics, 2nd Ed. Expanded, Hans C. Ohanian. 1989. W.W. Norton & Co.

Uncle Christ


national grid clarification

15.03.2011 11:38

You seem to be totally confusing the national grid with power stations. The national grid is just the high voltage pylons that carry the power across the country and nothing more. And since you originally referred to the national grid, that's the efficiency figure I pointed to above. A power station is the plant that burns the fuel and makes the electricity and nothing more. Grid, power stations - they're separate items, separate efficiencies and separate companies.

Also quoting 1989 books is fairly dubious since things have inevitably moved on since then.
Nuclear is about 35%, coal & oil about 45%, the latest combined cycle gas turbine power stations are about 59% efficient. These efficiencies still may not sound that great but are actually equal or superior to all forms of renewable energy apart from hydroelectric.

another scientist


Hinkley rural, susceptible to flooding danger

15.03.2011 12:17

Ayelighted on the news last night was that Hinkley and Oldbury could be affected by flood.

Uncle Christ


@another scientist

15.03.2011 18:55

You seem to have criticised a previous post for using out of date references, but not given references yourself?

And, unreferenced, you seem to agree with the post that you criticised that nuclear is the least efficient form of energy production - even if things have moved on.

Or was I missing something? Perhaps you could made you point more clearly for idiots like me?

rfg


Efficiency.

15.03.2011 19:10

The energy released by burning oil, coal, gas and so on is chemical in origin, and finite. One day we shall run out of fossil fuel.

The energy released from nuclear sources is energy that will be released anyway in the form of radioactive decay. Given that U238 can be converted into plutonium, then as far as we are concerned, nuclear energy is effectively limitless. 5 or 10% difference in efficiency is meaningless.

scientist


@rfg

16.03.2011 03:25

About my lack of references, sorry you're right. The efficiencies are somewhat scattered around the web and my head. Here's a single site that compares most of them as well as some pointless ones.
 http://www.mpoweruk.com/energy_efficiency.htm#comparison
apart from CCGT which I've referenced separately
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant#Efficiency_of_CCGT_plants

None of these figures are set in stone. Thermal power station efficiency varies quite a bit depending on design and age of technology. To maximise efficiency you need to heat your steam to as high a temperature as possible - which means that boilers and pipework need to be made of newly developed supermetals - and then in the final stages of extracting energy, you need to cool the steam as much as possible. This is why thermal power stations need to be near a body of cold water. No doubt you've already made up your mind about the wisdom of building power stations near to the sea in a prime earthquake location. Nuclear efficiency is lower than fossil fuel because the steam isn't at such a high temperature mainly for safety reasons. I wasn't trying to make out that nuclear is superior in this respect. I just like climate campaigners to know what they are talking about as there are a lot of wildly wrong figures about energy generation being spread around far too often.

Note how wonderfully efficient hydro electricity is - lucky Norway with its abundance of high, glacier covered mountains and pity the UK with its grassy hills. Note also the very poor efficiency of solar PV (much less than nuclear) which Monbiot recently has rightly been pointing out as being unsuitable for northern regions. This is because under overcast conditions - most of winter when you need the energy most - the output from PV cells typically sinks to just 5% of their full sun output.

The appropriate placement of wind turbines is even more vital. The power they produce is not related linearly to wind velocity but is proportional to the wind velocity cubed. For those who are curious as to why, this is described by Betz's law.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz%27_law
So if you can double the wind velocity then your turbine will produce eight times more power and it's fairly essential therefore that turbines are sited in flat country or high, exposed locations such as hills and ridges as the wind will be blowing so much stronger there. By contrast if you insist on siting turbines in built up areas where the wind velocity is always far less, then their output will plummet. If the wind speed is halved then their output will be 12.5%, quarter the windspeed and you're down to a pitiful 1.5%. So climate activists who propose having distributed wind energy generation extending into towns and cities are to my mind not being realistic. Many poorly sited urban wind turbines will never recover the energy used in their construction. We shouldn't be creating our own false solutions.

All forms of energy conversion have theoretical maximum efficiencies. Nothing is ever perfect. For wind turbines it's 59%. PV is only about 28%. In practice, 20% or so PVs exist but they are even more expensive. Cheaper thin film PV cells that have considerably lower embodied energy have been developed which are intended to coat the outside of buildings but their efficiency is a very poor 5%.

Of course all this talk of efficiencies is not comparing like with like in the context of climate change. For fossil fuelled generation, the inefficiency causes increased CO2 emssions but not so for nuclear or renewable energy.

Hope this has been helpful to some.

another scientist


Defenders of Beelzebub...

16.03.2011 13:13

Maybe I can help

 http://www.volunteerabroad.com/search/japan/volunteer-abroad-1

You can start with Fukushima

Uncle Christ


Upcoming Coverage
View and post events
Upcoming Events UK
24th October, London: 2015 London Anarchist Bookfair
2nd - 8th November: Wrexham, Wales, UK & Everywhere: Week of Action Against the North Wales Prison & the Prison Industrial Complex. Cymraeg: Wythnos o Weithredu yn Erbyn Carchar Gogledd Cymru

Ongoing UK
Every Tuesday 6pm-8pm, Yorkshire: Demo/vigil at NSA/NRO Menwith Hill US Spy Base More info: CAAB.

Every Tuesday, UK & worldwide: Counter Terror Tuesdays. Call the US Embassy nearest to you to protest Obama's Terror Tuesdays. More info here

Every day, London: Vigil for Julian Assange outside Ecuadorian Embassy

Parliament Sq Protest: see topic page
Ongoing Global
Rossport, Ireland: see topic page
Israel-Palestine: Israel Indymedia | Palestine Indymedia
Oaxaca: Chiapas Indymedia
Regions
All Regions
Birmingham
Cambridge
Liverpool
London
Oxford
Sheffield
South Coast
Wales
World
Other Local IMCs
Bristol/South West
Nottingham
Scotland
Social Media
You can follow @ukindymedia on indy.im and Twitter. We are working on a Twitter policy. We do not use Facebook, and advise you not to either.
Support Us
We need help paying the bills for hosting this site, please consider supporting us financially.
Other Media Projects
Schnews
Dissident Island Radio
Corporate Watch
Media Lens
VisionOnTV
Earth First! Action Update
Earth First! Action Reports
Topics
All Topics
Afghanistan
Analysis
Animal Liberation
Anti-Nuclear
Anti-militarism
Anti-racism
Bio-technology
Climate Chaos
Culture
Ecology
Education
Energy Crisis
Fracking
Free Spaces
Gender
Globalisation
Health
History
Indymedia
Iraq
Migration
Ocean Defence
Other Press
Palestine
Policing
Public sector cuts
Repression
Social Struggles
Technology
Terror War
Workers' Movements
Zapatista
Major Reports
NATO 2014
G8 2013
Workfare
2011 Census Resistance
Occupy Everywhere
August Riots
Dale Farm
J30 Strike
Flotilla to Gaza
Mayday 2010
Tar Sands
G20 London Summit
University Occupations for Gaza
Guantanamo
Indymedia Server Seizure
COP15 Climate Summit 2009
Carmel Agrexco
G8 Japan 2008
SHAC
Stop Sequani
Stop RWB
Climate Camp 2008
Oaxaca Uprising
Rossport Solidarity
Smash EDO
SOCPA
Past Major Reports
Encrypted Page
You are viewing this page using an encrypted connection. If you bookmark this page or send its address in an email you might want to use the un-encrypted address of this page.
If you recieved a warning about an untrusted root certificate please install the CAcert root certificate, for more information see the security page.

Global IMC Network


www.indymedia.org

Projects
print
radio
satellite tv
video

Africa

Europe
antwerpen
armenia
athens
austria
barcelona
belarus
belgium
belgrade
brussels
bulgaria
calabria
croatia
cyprus
emilia-romagna
estrecho / madiaq
galiza
germany
grenoble
hungary
ireland
istanbul
italy
la plana
liege
liguria
lille
linksunten
lombardia
madrid
malta
marseille
nantes
napoli
netherlands
northern england
nottingham imc
paris/île-de-france
patras
piemonte
poland
portugal
roma
romania
russia
sardegna
scotland
sverige
switzerland
torun
toscana
ukraine
united kingdom
valencia

Latin America
argentina
bolivia
chiapas
chile
chile sur
cmi brasil
cmi sucre
colombia
ecuador
mexico
peru
puerto rico
qollasuyu
rosario
santiago
tijuana
uruguay
valparaiso
venezuela

Oceania
aotearoa
brisbane
burma
darwin
jakarta
manila
melbourne
perth
qc
sydney

South Asia
india


United States
arizona
arkansas
asheville
atlanta
Austin
binghamton
boston
buffalo
chicago
cleveland
colorado
columbus
dc
hawaii
houston
hudson mohawk
kansas city
la
madison
maine
miami
michigan
milwaukee
minneapolis/st. paul
new hampshire
new jersey
new mexico
new orleans
north carolina
north texas
nyc
oklahoma
philadelphia
pittsburgh
portland
richmond
rochester
rogue valley
saint louis
san diego
san francisco
san francisco bay area
santa barbara
santa cruz, ca
sarasota
seattle
tampa bay
united states
urbana-champaign
vermont
western mass
worcester

West Asia
Armenia
Beirut
Israel
Palestine

Topics
biotech

Process
fbi/legal updates
mailing lists
process & imc docs
tech