Article hidden by moderator
jim travers | 20.10.2011 12:21 | World
I am beginning to wonder if moderators in Indymedia Uk are not so open to real debate, opinion, analysis and a viewpoint seen from a different angle or are they caught in the keep your mouth shut but speak quietly kind of hidden opposition. A recent article posted on Indymedia entitled 'Why we should listen to Griffin' dated 15-10-2011 was removed from the site after complaint. The moderator should have viewed the comments before he or she acted.
An open letter to moderators
Think before you act and try to provide balance of opinion before you act.
Why we should listen to Nick Griffin- posted 15-10-2011- removed 15-10-2011
The article was not meant to promote the BNP or Nick Griffin, it was posted to ask a question and seek sensible response. It would appear that the very mention of the BNP in the Uk is enough to make those who feel and think that the UK is on a slide but would rather keep that opinion out of the public areana and therefore away from public debate. The people who responded to the article ( made comment) were a small example of the racist kind on the other side who want to stifle and eliminate discussion that seeks to find an answer to the many problems asociated with racism. The same people who posted their comments and opinions are no better than the people they themselves accuse of being racist. The BNP may be seen as a racist party but there are just as many people with the same opinion as those who responded to the article.
I would also like to point out that the article was posted on other websites(outside UK) without a single complaint that would lead to the removal of the article. The article was not meant to glorify the BNP but it did point out a number of situations where the greater population of citizens in a country have a legitimate cause for concern when a very small minority of the population want to change things that effect the whole of the population. It is also important to note the constant similarities being made between the BNP and Nazi's. The people who object to opinion and analysis that does not conform to their own politican,cultural or religious opinion are the same people who seek censorship on those who think differently. Which side is displaying traits of a Nazi ideology. The recent banning of the burka in public places in France is a clear indication of how one community wants to impose its standards on the rest of the population. As with the terrible atrocities in the Uk during the time of 9/11, it was reported that the same terrorists(men) used the burka to hide their identity and leave the Uk on planes.This is a clear indication of the dangers associated with religions that insist on hiding the visual identity of people.Complain about this fact and you are called a racist. As with the Gardai in Ireland (Irish police) one Sikh decides he wanted to join the Irish police and then went about trying to construct his own little corner once he got his foot in the door. This is fact, its not made up, its on public record in Ireland as is the Black Police Officers Associatiion in England. So who is being racist? The group Residents Against Racism in Ireland was set up by a former Uk citizen who has absolutely no mandate from any resident organisation in Ireland, yet she proclaims her organisation represents residents in the Republic of ireland. If people want to give me their opinion on the issue concerned then I would be quite prepared to listen and take account of their concerns, opinions and objections to the article. What I will not accept is the racist remarks from the same people who have the cheek to accuse me of being racist.
I work with people from very many countries around the world. They are hard working, good people who live for their families and contribute to the betterment of all those in Irish society. Am I a racist?
I have no proble with people who want to practice their religion. What I do object too is having their religion slapped in my face everywhere i go. Women clothed from head to toe like ghosts that wander from A to B. The insecurity of men and their religion who see women as second class citizens, private property and human breeders. The same men frown upon the western world yet they live, work and take from the same world they so much hate.They dont drink alcohol, well not in front of their own religious kind. I'm not being racist, I'm pointing out fact, something that the majority of British people are saying quietly because the Racist movement might single the same people out for expressing their own personal opinion be they right or wrong. Where has freedom of speech gone or has this also been withdrawn because it offends a small minority of British society that is slowly eating away at the greater society? I have no real liking for the BNP but I think Nick Griffin should have been allowed speak in Trinity College, Dublin and people should have been given the opportunity to question his ideologies.
I now call on the moderator who removed my post to reinstate the post as it was not meant to offend but to pose a question for further sensible debate without foul and vulgar comment being made by people who find it easy to accuse others of being racist.
This article should be reinstated and left open for discussion and debate. Visitors should be allowed to air their opinions without having to carefully word their comments so as not to offend those who are easily offended by comments that are not of their liking.
Think before you act and try to provide balance of opinion before you act.
Why we should listen to Nick Griffin- posted 15-10-2011- removed 15-10-2011
The article was not meant to promote the BNP or Nick Griffin, it was posted to ask a question and seek sensible response. It would appear that the very mention of the BNP in the Uk is enough to make those who feel and think that the UK is on a slide but would rather keep that opinion out of the public areana and therefore away from public debate. The people who responded to the article ( made comment) were a small example of the racist kind on the other side who want to stifle and eliminate discussion that seeks to find an answer to the many problems asociated with racism. The same people who posted their comments and opinions are no better than the people they themselves accuse of being racist. The BNP may be seen as a racist party but there are just as many people with the same opinion as those who responded to the article.
I would also like to point out that the article was posted on other websites(outside UK) without a single complaint that would lead to the removal of the article. The article was not meant to glorify the BNP but it did point out a number of situations where the greater population of citizens in a country have a legitimate cause for concern when a very small minority of the population want to change things that effect the whole of the population. It is also important to note the constant similarities being made between the BNP and Nazi's. The people who object to opinion and analysis that does not conform to their own politican,cultural or religious opinion are the same people who seek censorship on those who think differently. Which side is displaying traits of a Nazi ideology. The recent banning of the burka in public places in France is a clear indication of how one community wants to impose its standards on the rest of the population. As with the terrible atrocities in the Uk during the time of 9/11, it was reported that the same terrorists(men) used the burka to hide their identity and leave the Uk on planes.This is a clear indication of the dangers associated with religions that insist on hiding the visual identity of people.Complain about this fact and you are called a racist. As with the Gardai in Ireland (Irish police) one Sikh decides he wanted to join the Irish police and then went about trying to construct his own little corner once he got his foot in the door. This is fact, its not made up, its on public record in Ireland as is the Black Police Officers Associatiion in England. So who is being racist? The group Residents Against Racism in Ireland was set up by a former Uk citizen who has absolutely no mandate from any resident organisation in Ireland, yet she proclaims her organisation represents residents in the Republic of ireland. If people want to give me their opinion on the issue concerned then I would be quite prepared to listen and take account of their concerns, opinions and objections to the article. What I will not accept is the racist remarks from the same people who have the cheek to accuse me of being racist.
I work with people from very many countries around the world. They are hard working, good people who live for their families and contribute to the betterment of all those in Irish society. Am I a racist?
I have no proble with people who want to practice their religion. What I do object too is having their religion slapped in my face everywhere i go. Women clothed from head to toe like ghosts that wander from A to B. The insecurity of men and their religion who see women as second class citizens, private property and human breeders. The same men frown upon the western world yet they live, work and take from the same world they so much hate.They dont drink alcohol, well not in front of their own religious kind. I'm not being racist, I'm pointing out fact, something that the majority of British people are saying quietly because the Racist movement might single the same people out for expressing their own personal opinion be they right or wrong. Where has freedom of speech gone or has this also been withdrawn because it offends a small minority of British society that is slowly eating away at the greater society? I have no real liking for the BNP but I think Nick Griffin should have been allowed speak in Trinity College, Dublin and people should have been given the opportunity to question his ideologies.
I now call on the moderator who removed my post to reinstate the post as it was not meant to offend but to pose a question for further sensible debate without foul and vulgar comment being made by people who find it easy to accuse others of being racist.
This article should be reinstated and left open for discussion and debate. Visitors should be allowed to air their opinions without having to carefully word their comments so as not to offend those who are easily offended by comments that are not of their liking.
jim travers
e-mail:
jimtravers@eircom.net
Comments
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Be warned
20.10.2011 12:41
The present small crew of mods do not like to be questioned or shown to be doing hides outside of the editorial guidelines.
ex MOD
Well done mods
20.10.2011 12:56
Antifascist
@ Antifascist
20.10.2011 13:41
He/She made excellent points about how accusations of "racist" are used to cut off debate and discussion when points are uncomfortable to hear.
I suggest you read the piece and form a more rounded opinion
A real Antifascist
Yes I did read it
20.10.2011 16:42
Antifascist
I'm going to steep down to your level for you to understand...
20.10.2011 16:44
yes, the BNP are Nazis, the only reason they don't all tattoo swastikas on their foreheads is because of generations of antifascist resistance have made these behaviours unacceptable, as they should be! If Griffin was given a mandate to talk freely about what he believes, he would tell you he used to sleep with a Mein Kampf under his pillow, but of course you don't think Nazis should be denied the air to speak, let alone the air to breathe.
I am sorry that you don't like women wearing Burkas, and yes this makes you a racist! I don't think women should be wearing anything, does that make me a sexist?
YES IT DOES!
It goes without saying that a man forcing a women to wear Burkas is sexist, but what about all the women who want to do so? why do you assume that they are forced to? If you look hard, you will find that some of the same women that wear Burkas for work, go out clubbing on the weekend with mini-skirts, and why shouldn't they? Why is it your concern what people wear?
I'm also sorry you find it offensive that some people don't drink, I am really sorry about that, I hope you can find help from AA on this one.
I know of a small group who try and control what the rest of us in society do, and you belong to that group.
Now you say you should be given a platform to express your opinions, and than you imply that this is the majority's opinion, BOLLOCKS!
The majority of people would like to preserve our rights, amongst these rights are the right for religious association, I'm sorry you find it so alien that some people are not white and Christian, you are just going to have to get over it.
There are plenty of fascist websites you can go to and express your general discontent to like-no-minded people such as yourself.
The first clue about a racist is that "I am not a racist" quote. If you truly are not, than you'd recognise that you hold some prejudices against others, keep it in the back of your mind and treat it as a flaw. at the end of the day we all hold some misconceptions about others, as long as we recognise them, and try and eradicate them, we earn the right to define ourselves as "not racist". It might seem like a contradiction to you, I'm afraid you'd just have to get over it.
One thing you cannot do, is use your self appointed mandate as a non-racist to limit others rights. Your aversion of the Burka is exactly the same as the Nazis aversion to a Kippa. The fact that you lot can no longer just come out and say just that is an indication that we are doing something right, the fact that your tabloid reading opinions are being censored here on Indymedia is an indication that the mods are doing something right.
It is my hope that as we grow as a society, as we become more conscience and considerate to others, we lock up people such as yourself in mental institutes where your disease can perhaps be cured, or at least your disgusting bile is taken away from the general population, as it is a poison.
I am all in favour of freedom of speech, I will happily talk to a capitalist, because unlike you, their opinion does not blanket out all others, it does not categorise everyone else into the "should not be listened to" group. But these sort of opinions, as we have learned from history, in a series of lessons which no sane person should want to learn again,must be eradicated, because the alternative is unimaginable suffering.
The most important thing in a free society which treasures the freedom of speech is to shut the Nazis and other racists up, because they are jeopardising all of our freedoms.
FUCK OFF AND DIE YOU PIECE OF SHIT!
Grrr!!!
Guff
20.10.2011 21:45
yes, the BNP are Nazis, the only reason they don't all tattoo swastikas on their foreheads is because of generations of antifascist resistance have made these behaviours unacceptable, as they should be! If Griffin was given a mandate to talk freely about what he believes, he would tell you he used to sleep with a Mein Kampf under his pillow, but of course you don't think Nazis should be denied the air to speak, let alone the air to breathe.
What a load of crap. So you actually think all those people who voted for the BNP are Nazis?
You are an idiot. I think you will find plenty of people who fought in the war AGAINST the nazi's have voted for the BNP. Yes, there are nazi's in the BNP, like there are terrorists in the left. So fucking what. Talk about generalisation - you are soooo extremist in your black & white view, there is actually more complexity in the world that your simple mind obviously can't comprehend beyond a two ring Venn diagram.
>> I am sorry that you don't like women wearing Burkas, and yes this makes you a racist!
No it doesn't!!!!!!! So if i don't like women wearing flat-caps, I am a racist too? Idiot.
>> I don't think women should be wearing anything, does that make me a sexist?
YES IT DOES!
What you are is one of those people who spend a lot of time going around telling people what you think of them. Ie. a miserable pain in the arse. Get a hobby and stop criticizing everyone for their viewpoint.
>> It goes without saying that a man forcing a women to wear Burkas is sexist, but what about all the women who want to do so?
If it goes without saying - then what is you fucking problem?
>> why do you assume that they are forced to?
Mainly because of a culture. The Taleban don't like women doing a lot of things like education or not wearing a burka. FACT!
>> If you look hard, you will find that some of the same women that wear Burkas for work, go out clubbing on the weekend with mini-skirts, and why shouldn't they? Why is it your concern what people wear?
My concern is I don't like men enforcing women what they can and can't do. Some women wear a burka through choice, but that really isn't the whole picture is it? Far from it.
>> I'm also sorry you find it offensive that some people don't drink, I am really sorry about that, I hope you can find help from AA on this one.
Who finds it offensive. I don't drink - but through free-will and choice. I might have a half bitter shandy once in a million years but I choose that out of free will not some kind of enforced beating.
>> I know of a small group who try and control what the rest of us in society do, and you belong to that group.
Touche!
>> Now you say you should be given a platform to express your opinions, and than you imply that this is the majority's opinion, BOLLOCKS!
The majority of people would like to preserve our rights, amongst these rights are the right for religious association, I'm sorry you find it so alien that some people are not white and Christian, you are just going to have to get over it.
The majority of people in the UK are pissed off with Islam because it spends a lot of time telling people what you can and can't do. No one is interested in supporting this.
>> There are plenty of fascist websites you can go to and express your general discontent to like-no-minded people such as yourself.
Free country - people have the right to post comments on this site without you telling them if they can or cannot just because you don't agree. In short - who put you in charge? What gives you the right to tell people what they can and can't do just because of your world viewpoint?
>> The first clue about a racist is that "I am not a racist" quote.
Are you a racist? No? Then clearly, by your logic - you saying "no" - means "yes"
Lol! You really are an idiot.
>> If you truly are not, than you'd recognise that you hold some prejudices against others, keep it in the back of your mind and treat it as a flaw. at the end of the day we all hold some misconceptions about others, as long as we recognise them, and try and eradicate them, we earn the right to define ourselves as "not racist". It might seem like a contradiction to you, I'm afraid you'd just have to get over it.
So, in short, you are saying it should be banned to criticise anyone or anything because everyone has the right to do what they want? Would never work? People want the freedom to express themselves.
>> One thing you cannot do, is use your self appointed mandate as a non-racist to limit others rights. Your aversion of the Burka is exactly the same as the Nazis aversion to a Kippa. The fact that you lot can no longer just come out and say just that is an indication that we are doing something right, the fact that your tabloid reading opinions are being censored here on Indymedia is an indication that the mods are doing something right.
If you are trying to tell me that everyone who is NOT a nazi likes the Burka - then you are deluded. There are plenty of people who don't like the burka or the idea of it who ARNT Nazis
When you get this into your thick head you will actually start getting it.
>> It is my hope that as we grow as a society, as we become more conscience and considerate to others, we lock up people such as yourself in mental institutes where your disease can perhaps be cured, or at least your disgusting bile is taken away from the general population, as it is a poison.
Yes, but at the same time, we can't let anyone do what they want in a society otherwise we end up with anarchy. There has to be compromise and a set of values. If the majority of people don't like peope urinating on the street corner, then what gives you the right to do so?
Thats democracy..... don't like it? Tough. THe majority is what counts.
>> I am all in favour of freedom of speech, I will happily talk to a capitalist, because unlike you, their opinion does not blanket out all others, it does not categorise everyone else into the "should not be listened to" group. But these sort of opinions, as we have learned from history, in a series of lessons which no sane person should want to learn again,must be eradicated, because the alternative is unimaginable suffering.
You've neglected to consider that this is just your opinion.
And since you arn't actually God - it actually is only equally of worth as someone else's opinion such as the person you seem to be valuing yourself higher than. Sorry to break it to you - but you arn't more important than them - you are of equal value.
Ie. Who the fuck put you in charge of what people can and can't think or say????????
>> The most important thing in a free society which treasures the freedom of speech is to shut the Nazis and other racists up, because they are jeopardising all of our freedoms.
If that is what the majority want. But as I said before, not all Non-nazi's like the burka.
>> FUCK OFF AND DIE YOU PIECE OF SHIT!
Wanker. Stop trying to tell people what they can and can't think
You have your opinions. Others have theirs. Quit with the gagging order you wanker.
Let people have a voice
You are not people!
20.10.2011 23:28
>Basically yes, Nazis and sheep, and it's thanks to people like you who think they deserve a stage that the sheep vote for them.
I don't like or dislike the Burka, but i know it's not my place to decide what people wear, what doesn't get through your thick skull is that it's not your place either. You blame the Taliban for brainwashing women into wearing them, but this simply isn't the case, and you saying it's a fact doesn't make it so
It isn't about my opinion either, it's about cold facts, Nazism is the most vile and disgusting ideology there is, there is no talking to you lot, the only level you might understand is the 4chan talk. it is a black and white issue, Nazis are evil full stop! your opinions have been shown time and again to lead to extreme violence. There is no room for debate on this, it's the one holy cow that must never be slaughtered. the majority view is immaterial on this.
>You are an idiot. I think you will find plenty of people who fought in the war AGAINST the nazi's have voted for the BNP. Yes, there are nazi's in the BNP, like there are terrorists in the left. So fucking what.
Talk about generalisation - you are soooo extremist in your black & white view, there is actually more complexity in the world that your simple mind obviously can't comprehend beyond a two ring Venn diagram.
the set you are talking about (BNP intersect Veterans) is composed of irrationals, I'm glad you've been paying attention in your 1st semester math lectures though, maybe one day you'll grow a brain! I'll take it you started this September, being that you use lame analogies like this.
>The first clue about a racist is that "I am not a racist" quote.
Are you a racist? No? Then clearly, by your logic - you saying "no" - means "yes"
Lol! You really are an idiot.
This obviously went way over your head, unfortunately for you white trash, you'll never get it because you'll never truly have experienced racism, and you are not even trying to understand!
>So, in short, you are saying it should be banned to criticise anyone or anything because everyone has the right to do what they want? Would never work? People want the freedom to express themselves.
NAMBLA argument!
> If you are trying to tell me that everyone who is NOT a nazi likes the Burka - then you are deluded. There are plenty of people who don't like the burka or the idea of it who ARNT Nazis
Again, this isn't about what I like or dislike, it's about people's right to choose, and the Nazis attempt to take that away.
>Yes, but at the same time, we can't let anyone do what they want in a society otherwise we end up with anarchy
Oh no!
>Thats democracy..... don't like it? Tough. THe majority is what counts.
There's more to democracy than mob rule! In fact there isn't a democracy when the mob rules, Majority opinion have lead us through some of the worst atrocities in history including the current banking crisis, The majority rule cannot work on the lowest common denominator, and with people like you spreading their crap around it sure as hell will fuck what little democracy we have over! You should only express your self using informed and educated opinions, otherwise just shut up!
>You've neglected to consider that this is just your opinion.
And since you arn't actually God - it actually is only equally of worth as someone else's opinion such as the person you seem to be valuing yourself higher than. Sorry to break it to you - but you arn't more important than them - you are of equal value.
Ie. Who the fuck put you in charge of what people can and can't think or say????????
Having learned from personal and family history, I know for a fact that some opinions and expressions are so dangerous that they must be fought against at every opportunity and resisted with force if that's what it takes, it's not just my opinion, it's fact! And anyway, who gave you the mandate to speak for the unwashed masses? God (If she exists) is on my side on this!
>If that is what the majority want. But as I said before, not all Non-nazi's like the burka.
Majority rule put Hitler, Mubarak and Bush in power!, It isn't about what you like or dislike, it's about you disliking it because you are racist, it's about you dictating what everyone else can and cannot do.
>Wanker. Stop trying to tell people what they can and can't think
You have your opinions. Others have theirs. Quit with the gagging order you wanker.
This gagging order comes from the highest moral calibre, and will be forced using extreme violence if you don't shut up and fuck off of here, You've been warned!
Grrr!!!
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