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Non human first declaration another racist attack on animal rights

Antifascist Animal Liberator | 30.12.2013 09:30 | Animal Liberation | Anti-racism

Few things unite the animal liberation movement more than the rejection of Speciesism but recently we have discovered a Racist sympathiser page has sprung up under the banner of NON HUMAN FIRST that is causing a major stir within the animal liberation movement

The animal liberation movement is and always has been a anti racist anti Speciesist movement and rejected racists inclusion at every attempt but recently a group calling itself NON HUMAN FIRST has sprung up and makes it very clear that they will not ban racists and will welcome them with open arms on demo's.

Their page can be seen here:

Richard deboo explains why this racist group is wrong.

The “Putting non-humans first” ‘project’ claims that so long as one is driven by a determination to end the enslavement of non-human animals, then it does not matter what views and opinions one holds with regards to other humans (and we know that many are in positions of exploitation, legalised discrimination and on the receiving end of great violence and often fatal harm).

The suggestion that, so long as one does something to help non-human animals, it matters not at all if one is at the same time also racist, misogynist, disablist or homophobic (and so on) is a ridiculous assertion that not only strains credibility but is a venal debasement of the meaning of justice.

Justice does not sanction one prejudice when contrasted with another; justice is not satisfied with one bigotry replacing another; justice is not served when the chauvinist is regarded as a worthy ally in the fight for freedom for our non-human friends. It is a mockery of justice and confirms only that injustice will continue to dominate our society.

The propositions put forward by “Putting Non-humans first” are an incoherent mess of illogical, ill-conceived and inchoate statements that act only as a sop to the bigoted, providing them with a false sense of entitlement to ridiculous, discredited and obscene opinions whose only intention is to perpetuate discriminatory, exploitative, antagonistic and downright contemptible attitudes towards their own target group – whether based on gender, sexual orientation, race or other arbitrary characteristic that rankles with their unformed, squalid reactions to those whom they perceive as “different” and therefore unworthy of the respect, tolerance, compassion and decency that they expect to be granted to themselves.

They claim that non-humans are in a precarious state of emergency (which is true) and thus it is of no concern if anyone seeking to help those non-humans also has attitudes that “conflict with human rights ideology” (their wording). That last part is not true.

Prejudice of any kind is a sickness of the mind. The cure is social justice, expressed fully and completely, without compromise or twisting or hiding of the truth.

The promotion of animal rights is one of the most astonishingly difficult prejudices to overcome, given how deeply embedded it is in the cultural structures and legal and political systems of our world.

We all have to work extremely hard to ensure that those who currently hold the opinion that non-human animals are unworthy of the full protections of the law and the extension of love and compassion to them and the proper attention to and satisfaction of their needs must be mindful that, if we then at the same time, hold opinions contrary to the basic principle of social justice (that no-one should be discriminated against based on some randomly-chosen trait) it makes us look ridiculous, foolish, very stupid, and frankly really pathetic.

It is difficult enough to find an outlet in the traditional media that will present animal protection issues in a favourable light without us making it so much easier for those who oppose our compassionate views to hold us up to the cold light of public scrutiny and say, “Look! Look at the your animal rights zealots! Fanatics all of them – racists, homophobes, women-hating! Look and see! Aren’t they stupid?!”

Yes, it is stupid. It has no place in a tolerant, empathetic and compassionate animal protection philosophy. Animal protection is a matter of pure social justice. Non-humans are exploited against precisely because society currently tolerates and condones the commonly-held prejudice against them, based purely on their species membership.

The full article can be read here:

The non human first membership is a small group in numbers and mainly gets its support from the 269 life campaign.
Its admin is unknown to us but we would be seriously questioning their intentions on this.

We as animal liberationists MUST reject Speciesism at every corner we can not tolerate or accept racists or fascists within our ranks and we MUST reject racist groups such as non human first campaign and expose them as what they are. Racists.

if you are on facebook like a true antifascist animal liberationists page here:

Antifascist Animal Liberator


Hide the following 177 comments


30.12.2013 11:43

how perpetrators of this non-human first crap Mathau and his mates reared their heads in the AR movement about the same time as the EDL took to the streets. Treat as state.


Depends on the BASIS for their AR position

30.12.2013 14:33

Look, this is NOT intended in any way, shape, or form to be in support of these fascists. But you are not being logical in your attack on them for not being logical.

YOUR basis for being for AR appears to be "justice". Yes of course, it would be very strange for somebody using a basis of "justice" to be for animal rights but not for human rights. But then you go off the deep end assuming that everybody in the AR movement is there because of "justice" and not some other basis.

If you want to argue that these fascists are inconsistent then you have to argue in terms of the bases that they are using, not upon your own.


Aran Mathia

30.12.2013 15:20

Aran Mathai
Aran Mathai

a fascist apologist from Leeds is behind this group.

Fuck the EDL

MDN - a quick response

30.12.2013 15:39


Many thanks for taking the time to read through this important article. I did, in fact, base my critique upon the principles outlined by the Putting Non-Humans First (PNHF) group. I used the word "justice" a lot in my critique because PNHF claim to be seeking a rectiication of the current social situation faced by non-humans (their expliotation and enslavement) as there is no moral, social or political justification for it (which is true). I regard that as seeking "justice" for non-humans (ie, correcting a wrong and putting in place a new situation which is "right").

But if justice is to be served then we must be consistent in how that is expressed - as I state in my article, correcting one wrong (prejudice against non-humans) whilst at the same time condoning and supporting another wrong (prejudice against some humans (based upon a variety of arbitrarily-chosen characteristics)) does not serve justice.

Prejudice - of any kind - has no place in the animal liberation movement, which by its very definition includes all animals, whether human or non-human ...

mail e-mail:
- Homepage: www.richarddeboo,com

Rubbish to non human first

30.12.2013 17:54

Non human first now seem intent on blackmail and lies nice

What about you're recent escapades of having anti semites on you're demo's non human first aka ARAN

Jon Proctor
- Homepage:

Racist attends AR protest

30.12.2013 18:22

Dogs 4 us demo
Dogs 4 us demo

A racist attended an Animal Rights protest in Leeds on the 22nd December.

He is called Daniel Carter, check out his fb page:

Or this:

Racists and fascists are NOT welcome in our movement.

Anti fa


30.12.2013 19:03

Nice to see blackmail has reared its ugly head from the admins of the non humans first group. Nasty stuff going on behind the scenes.

mail e-mail:


30.12.2013 19:23

This is a load of bollocks. I know those activists and they are not fash. This article is probably state or someone trying to use anti-fash to fight their personal battles!

Real Anti-Fash

@ "Real Anti-Fash" My arse.

30.12.2013 19:43

Scum like this have opened the floodgates to racists and fascists. It's called infiltration, with helping hands from Facebook, Mathai, House, Steele etc



30.12.2013 20:15

In reality its a storm in a tea cup.

Real Anti-Fash

@Real Anti-Fash

30.12.2013 20:25

Except tea is always better without lumps of shit floating round in it.



30.12.2013 20:28

It is good for people to see the names and faces of people that are making an arse out of a movement. It is an education and gives people insight into which characters to avoid.


No sense

30.12.2013 20:31

Aran & others are far from racist. You're getting yourself confused between a racist and a misanthrope. I guess that is what a low IQ does for you. The authors intentions are well intentioned but sadly he has confused the declaration and confused the intention of activists like Aran Mathai, George House, and even Luke Steele. All three have been dedicated activists and continue to be dedicated animal rights activists. I'm not sure who the author is and frankly I don't care but sadly I wish they would come forward and identify themselves so that a few things can be cleared up. Debate is fine. But animal rights in black & white is far from academic. It's very simple. We're a small movement already; don't let us divide anymore. This is not helping. If a racist was a militant animal rights activists and raided an animal lab do you really think the animals would scream "Don't free me for fuck sake you're a racist"? Get real. George and Luke have both been in prison for animal rights convictions. Both have paid the ultimate price. Not sure who the author is but I doubt they would risk their own freedom.



30.12.2013 20:42

Yes 'Anon' you tell them to reveal themselves.

I bet you're one of the people mentioned in the comments?


The same individuals involved here

30.12.2013 21:01

also run the so-called "UK animal rights protests" page on facebook, where they continue to spread their fash friendly message.

Fash Free AR

Animal Liberation = Human Liberation

30.12.2013 21:18

First of all Luke Steele has nothing to do with any of this.
The reality of the situation is that Aran is not racist himself, he is in fact half Indian and been a victim of racism - this makes his acceptance of racists even more bizarre.
Aran was given much attention in the AR community, because he was young and a good campaigner (he also used to be anti fash). Since more people have joined the movement, he has received less attention from others. Since then he has been desperately seeking some sort of attention and thus created the Non-Humans First group. It is nothing more than a way of him getting attention, a dangerous way at that.
Daniel Carter is a well known and out-spoken Nazi and White Supremacist. He has been exposed on anti-fascist websites throwing Nazi salutes on EDL marches and behind "White Pride" flags. This person attending Animal Rights demonstrations would give the public, and others, the impression that Animal Rights activists are Nazis/Nazi sympathisers. The AR movement has always been anti-fascist - all abuse is linked, none are free until all are free.
To summarise, Aran needs to stop attention seeking. Daniel Carter and his Nazi friends need to fuck off and the movement needs to continue pushing for total liberation.

One Struggle


30.12.2013 21:43

If I authored an article like this one, I'd reveal my name to give it credibility. This article has no credibility nor truth. As animal rights activists we should strive to speak truthfully, no? We're not politicians. We do not need to be politically correct. I recall animal liberation as being liberating nonhumans, not humans. Not sure where you stand on it. Many leading figures such as Paul Watson, Ingrid Newkirk, etc who have much more for animals than a lot of people are misanthropes. There is a difference. Non-Humans First is a group of misanthropes, not racists. They recognise the suffering that humans cause. Sorry - do you recall that all life would thrive without humans? Stick your supremacy up your arse.


Steele not included?

30.12.2013 21:50

@One Struggle: Scum like this have opened the floodgates to racists and fascists. It's called infiltration, with helping hands from Facebook, Mathai, House, Steele etc --< Can you not read?

The Truth


30.12.2013 22:18

Wherever there is any infighting in AR on Facebook there is Aran Mathai. He can't decide whether he is anti fash or doesn't care, depends which is going to get him the biggest popularity vote. His non human supporters page is full of paid for 'likes' in a desperate attempt to show he has followers. He is the one making a big song and dance about racists and facists. In the past it was more or less accepted we didn't work with them. Why on earth he has opened this up to debate is I think as another commentator has noted, merely an attention seeking exercise.

For Animals

Non-humans first?

30.12.2013 22:20

But surely that's speciesism against the human species?


@Anti Spe

30.12.2013 23:00

Aran as founder of the group will claim he is not for humans, only animals. Which of course leads to big questions.

For Animals

@ One Struggle aka Deboo

30.12.2013 23:21

I started NHF because of the fact good AR activists were being banned because of human rights issues. It is ridiculous to suggest I did it for popularity when you claim NHF is so unpopular. I have never used fake 'likes' on the NHF page – there would be a lot more 'likes' if I had - all are genuine supporters.


@The Truth (apparently)

30.12.2013 23:39

Luke Steele is not a part of NHF, nor has he been involved in any of the arguments surrounding it - it is unfair to bring him into it.

One Struggle


30.12.2013 23:42

firstly, this is not Deboo. Secondly, if you would like to state who has actually been banned that would be great.
You like to play the victim yet you, yourself have never been banned from any group; granted now many people wouldn't make you feel too welcome. There have been, to my knowledge, only one person that has been told that they are not welcome - you know exactly who I am refering to - for the good of the movement. They were vile.

One Struggle

@One Struggle

30.12.2013 23:58

Luke Steele has the same open door policy as NHF, so why would it be unfair? Seems like it is a personal dislike of certain people for you.

Real Anti-Fash

@One Struggle

31.12.2013 00:15

OK Tod (or whoever, stop being a coward and write your name). Ban from various groups; George, Becca, Michelle, Anthony. Boycotts where held against NAVA and Boycott D4U. Public attacks against the 269life campaign, etc. Because of this constant attack on campaign groups and individuals a strong and constant response needed to be created.

269Life, which you were a part of, created the underpinnings for the ideas behind the Non-Humans First approach. After consultation with them I formed Non-Humans First as an alternative for those that were primarily focused on non-human animals not creating a leftist, or indeed rightist, utopia. We never try to stop others running their campaigns their way, it is just a choice for those that don't agree.



31.12.2013 01:06

This isn't Tod either - I don't feel that stating my name is important.
None of those people stated have ever been banned from being in public areas. People not being wlecomed to be in the vicinity of others is not banning them from doing anything. When it comes to being on other people's property (I.E At the Gathering) it is a different stroy.
I was at the recent International Gathering; that just proved that fascists have their own agenders and should not be welcomed by the movement.

One Struggle

@One Struggle

31.12.2013 01:29

The fact you won't use your real name shows you have no confidence in what you are saying, either that or you are simply a coward. I have put my name openly to NHF and the other causes I am involve with.

A ban is a ban whether from a group, meeting, gathering or demo – it is not OK in any way shape or form, although all those on the list but Anthony have been banned from public demos.

The International Gathering was ruined by so-called anti-fash that went to the gathering and then proceeded to insult the host animal sanctuary, saying they were linked to fash and having a catering company called 'Just Like Mum' was sexist - if you dont like the host why attend?


Helpful this article is not

31.12.2013 01:45

this article is doing the ar world no justice its giving a platform to air dirty laundry for the world to see surly this is best being left what good is it doing having these articles in public showing the discontent within.

I have my own view on nhf but this is not the time or place to air this laundry ! if we really want to get down to an agreement and discussion it should be in round a table in a room out of the view of innocent bystanders.

This is doing none of us any good and just causing friction

Jon Proctor

@For the Animals & Anti Spec

31.12.2013 09:48

"Aran as founder of the group will claim he is not for humans, only animals. Which of course leads to big questions."

In what way does this lead to big questions? Are you in this for animals, or in this for some ego boost? You're another loon I think.

Truly for Animals

@Truly For Animals

31.12.2013 09:55

Nice one. Using speciesist language to insult another AR member. A loon is an aquatic bird, not a term of insult in the same way we shouldn't use other animals as terms of insult. But what do I expect from those who are already speciesist.

For Animals

@Jon Proctor

31.12.2013 11:00

It's always good to expose fascist apologists, nobody likes them.


What is the point in this article?

31.12.2013 12:14

I think it is quite clear that the reason this article was posted is to up the support for Mr Richard Deboo and his endeavour to be some sort of modern Mahatma Ghandi. Not only is this article completely uncalled for, but this is just an ego thing on Deboo's part, we all have our own ways of campaigning, love it or lump it, we don't care if you ban people from farting or breathing in your little perfect group of probably about 10, because we don't care what you do. But dont you think it's time to finally get over yourselves and take your shit covered noses out of Deboo's arse and business that is not your own? NHF does not libel about "animal liberation for all" or whatever the f@ck it's called, the supporters do not post pictures and statements of your admins or supporters, so please show some decency, Jon, and stop with the childish antics.
There is not one bit of evidence to imply that NHF is a racist declaration, but by all means prove me wrong and show me where...

Fame whore deboo

Sexism now hmm

31.12.2013 12:44

Aran iv told you straight and i'll keep telling you straight to you're face and i'll say it again

I am not the author of this article and have emailed the indymedia admins to ask them to take it down as i do not belive this is the best place to hold a slinging match ie for the whole world to see my style as you well know is upfront both feet forward

Now stop making liable accusations about me and leave me alone !


@Fame whore deboo (aka aran)

Stop assuming things

31.12.2013 12:49

Im not Aran. Seriously!

Deboo fame whore

Clearly its you

31.12.2013 12:58

I thought you were for everyone using their real names ARAN

Iv said by bit now bugger off

Well DUH

State will be operating on both sides of the "Divide"

31.12.2013 13:13

Peeps should be aware that corporate/state will be operating on both sides in this divide and rule non sense.

Last I saw killing animals was worth 16 billion a year to the UK economy, when you threaten as AR does, that lucre the corporate state will seek to disrupt in anyway it can.


and Fuck the corporate state


You dumb f*ck

31.12.2013 13:22

This proves how easily led astray you are Jon! You idiot, it's George not Aran. Can whoever it is posting my pictures on here stop doing so. Stop with the bullshit would be nice too. Thank you.


Not me.

31.12.2013 13:24

I am not the above commenter Jon. You can clearly see the above is not my writing style. I wish people would start using their names from now on - everyone writes under a number of names - this is why Indymedia is now a joke for AR reasons and only really used by cops.



31.12.2013 13:26

led astray ?? i dont think so but this is not the time or place to hold this debate i reiterate my request to indy mods to take down this fucking article

the abusers will be pissing them self with laughter by now

George ?


31.12.2013 13:27

Also neither George nor Sasha are admins of NHF. You can take them off your hit list.


Finally something we agree on

31.12.2013 13:30

YES . agreed that this aint the place to hold this debate as indymedia (no offence to the mods) is very much trolled by sad cops. If a mature debate on this was to be raised it should be done away from facebook away from twitter away from indymedia and social media it should be done face to face round a table with a cup of tea and debate like adults



31.12.2013 14:14

I would surmise that the editor of this article does not truly care about animal rights, and most likely not even vegan.
Animal rights isn't about human egos, and to suggest that is what Aran is doing is ridiculous.
Animals don't care who saves them, would you?


Animal rights is anti racist

31.12.2013 14:35

seitan The animal liberation movement is an anti racist anti speciesist movement always has been always will be

What aran mathais group is doing is allowing the racists and fascists entry into the uk animal rights movement and causing mass division within the movement.

To allow speciesism within our ranks is to divide the core of the animal rights movement.

Most animal rights groups have signed up to the animal liberation hallmarks for this exact reason.

To reject speciesism as speciesism is racism is fascism is and is animal abuse.


@fame whore deboo and anoop

31.12.2013 15:15

Sorry to disappoint guys, the article had nothing to do with either me nor Richard aside from Richards original article being quoted. ---waves at anoop--- long time no hear. A pleasure as usual :)



31.12.2013 15:24

said the AR movement is an anti racist movement?
If an animal is about to be killed, ! really don't care who is going to save that animal.
This isn't about egos, it is about animals lives.
Would you actually stop someone from saving an animals life, because they may be racist? that is something that will NEVER make any sense to me. I have been involved in the AR scene for many years, I', not some newbie who knows nothing.
I've also been involved in AFA actions in the past.
I HATE racists, but i also don't want animals to be dieing.

Those fascists are ALREADY within the ar movement, don't kid yourself they're not!


Your notes are screenshot

31.12.2013 15:58

Whilst the police force are meant to remain impartial. all your comments are screenshot and will go to the relevant departments. Thank you for making my New Year's Eve joyful and nearer to a promotion as a result. PC Williams....Name of Borough can be disclosed if asked....

P C Andrews (Midlands constabulary)

PC Andrews or whoever

31.12.2013 16:02

Midlands constabulary. Try harder. There isn't one.


This is all public

31.12.2013 16:17

The whole article is public and my colleague and I are on duty and want to remain anonymous. Don't be worried. Comments have been emailed to my superior Chief Constable Chris Sims as we type.



31.12.2013 16:23

“The animal liberation movement is an anti racist anti speciesist movement always has been always will be”

I would like to address a factual point here. This is incorrect. In fact there has always been a conflict on this issue. See Arkangel #2 page 3.


PC Andrews is right!

31.12.2013 17:04

Regardless of who made the comment, its a good point and probably the reality. Now can we all just agree to stop commenting and if Richard or Jon or anyone wishes to make a point, firstly get their facts straight and contact the people they refer to in articles or comments. This isn't helping the animals, quite the contrary, we all have various opinions on campaigning, neither one may be correct, but let's be civilised and not make a fool of the movement. We should all, contact indymedia to remove this horribly dangerous and misleading article.

Made your point


31.12.2013 17:40

It's people with an attitude like yours that will be exposed, rejected and ejected. You're an absolute disgrace.


Get Facts Right

31.12.2013 17:47

Neither Richard or Jon wrote this article. The article quotes something Richard wrote a few months ago which he stands by but this article on indymedia is nothing to do with him. The only comment Richard has made in this debate is the one with his name underneath. Jon did not write the article.



31.12.2013 17:48

Seems there is a very similar situation caused by these extreme intersectionalists in the anarchist movement as well:

The attacks need to stop. We can all fight for causes without sharing identical views on other issues.



31.12.2013 17:54

real UK AR work continues unabated in the field in the form of hunt sabbing where real lives are really saved, a place where these mouthy pretend "AR's" fear to tread.

You kiddies stick to chatting shit on facebook, it's where you started, where you'll end and where you're stuck. A digital dungeon.

Throw away the key I say.



31.12.2013 18:30

Stop diverting. YOU are the problem here.


Racism is not ok with me

31.12.2013 21:14

animal rights = human rights its very simple only the blind can not see that

Aran you would not be welcome in manchester as i tell you now you are a disgrace allowing a fascist on your demonstration was disgusting and outrageous and an injustice to all animal liberationists

Time we de weed the crap from the animal rights movement mathai, beevers, proctor, houses. ghale and every other racist sympathiser in the animal liberation movement needs booting.

The "oldies" as were described by mathai and proctor are the only ones speaking sense the babies are the ones causing the trouble

Fash out of the ar

Animal actvist

@Animal actvist

31.12.2013 22:58

No one is welcome in Manchester Animal Action it seems. More bans than members.

Real Anti-Fash

Real meaning of animal liberation

01.01.2014 03:16

The real meaning of the animal liberation movement seems to have been forgotten its about time we went back to our roots and our history don't you think.

The animal liberation movement has fundamentally always been vegan antifascist anti racist anti speciesist.
We reject an attack on the human species just as much as we reject an attack on our animal friends.

Animal rights can only be achieved with human emancipation anything to the contrary is incorrect.

Its time we got off social media wars and got on with action (tho i doubt aran would be made welcome by any animal rights group in the uk).
Wish you luck with your endeavours aran but really not helpful what you are doing.

- Homepage:

NHF page

01.01.2014 09:58

If anyone would care to take a look at the Non Humans First page and click on 'likes' you might notice the most popular area of likes comes from Bangalore, India. A popular area used by traders on for paid for likes...

Is someone buying likes for their page?


No Fake Likes [proof]

01.01.2014 12:20

As you will see from the screenshot below we have likes from all over the world. We have a few genuine supporters from India and it is quite racist of you to think we would not. India has its own AR community and many people care about animals there.

This is a screenshot of the top cities and places that like the NHF page, take from FB Insights.


Get real anoop

01.01.2014 19:49

Anoop take your poison elsewhere

can i suggest all AR'S ignore this article as its doing no one any good i'm out of here won't be posting again so do your worst anoop

Also no harm in trying again Indymedia if you got any sort of decency delete this fucking article

jon to LOLing@SmokerRights

Sensible debate required among activists old, new and everyone inbetween

02.01.2014 01:48

The deliberate attempt to turn this important debate into nothing other than an immature mud slinging match is a predictable act of sabotage, embarked upon to distract readers from the reason this debate must be had, for those whom we work for. The animals.

There are contributions that make sense and others that don't, clearly Anoop Ghale who was exposed for racially motivated bullying is on here spewing her usual disgusting language and proudly exposing her prejudices.

Did the hallmarks happen because of the likes of her? Absolutely. Are they convoluted, long winded and inaccessible? Possibly. Was Aran Anoop's arch enemy, (unless they've made up now as they have much in common) a supporter of the hallmarks? Yes, for a time until he heard 'well reasoned arguments against them' a 'well reasoned' argument which consists, of dull far reaching highly unlikely scenarios such as "what if...." "What if a Nazi was about to break into a lab, would the animals care who liberated them blah blah blah" An 'argument' which is akin to is asking the age old and equally dull unlikely scenario we've all been exposed too as vegans such as "what would you do if you were on a desert island, your only companion being a sheep, you'd eat it right?" One appropriate response to the ridiculousness of the latter fictitious scenario of course is "I'll have what the sheep is eating"

What these two ridiculous fictitious 'arguments' have in common is that neither situation is going to occur,. There's as much chance of one being stranded on a desert island as there is some nazi planning and executing a raid. The UK's most recent animal rights prisoner, George House, never even got near the animal house of that hospital, he just went for a wander around the place, then failed to avoid arrest by handing evidence to the police on a plate that he entered the hospital and also wrote on his local greyhound stadium. If his actions were a genuine attempt to help the victims of vivisection he would have had homes lined up for rescued animals, done a decent amount of professional reconnaissance to ensure the 'mission' was a success. A genuine attempt to help the dogs is to not get caught but unfortunately it appears as if the animals themselves were not his primary concern, stardom was and my gosh how he and his sister, who once spoke of her love of McDonalds and even praised their 'welfare standards' which tells us all we need to know about her, have 'milked' it ever since.

Luke Beevers. Desperate to get arrested, convicted and his ultimate aim is to be imprisoned in order to be congratulated The fact that he actually congratulated himself by drawing attention for his one year anniversary for gaining a criminal conviction tells us all we need to know about him. The idea, for people who really want to help animals, is to avoid this as far as possible rather than boast about it. Getting caught is nothing to be proud of, it's a failure and the animals for whom we work deserve better.

Aran,well he really needs attention and if this was a relay race to trash the animal rights movement, Anoop began it then swiftly handed the baton to Aran who has run with it just as effectively as she.

What individuals discussed here have in common is that it is highly likely that they are naturally disturbed, furious and motivated by the relentless meting out of never ending abuse of our kin and are indeed motivated to try to do something about it, as are most of us involved in the struggle for animal liberation. There is also hope for them to see the error of their ways if they are genuine about making a meaningful contribution to this social justice movement. Unfortunately they also share a need for the limelight which makes them ineffective as most UK animal liberationists are either not on facebook, do not use it to boast about anything and they just quietly get on with it. The movement does look dead, as Anoop states on here because she is merely referring to it's online presence. That is not reality. The movement is dysfunctional, but that is because social media allows those discussed above to boast about minor actions which in reality have not actually helped animals. Social media is abused all the time... right now in fact by the setting up of fake pages pretending to be anti racist. John Merrick, oh dear. Talk about wasting time and deflecting attention from the plight of our non human victims!

Another commonality among some of the individuals mentioned above is that they have defended and protected Stephen and Kel Leigh, racists who infiltrated an ongoing successful campaign against a greyhound stadium. What must be remembered is that we in the animal liberation movement can afford to be choosy with whom we associate and work with. As the Newchurch campaign proved, never ever doubt the power of a small number of dedicated and committed activists. A small number! None of whom require adulation, all of whom remained focused on shuttting that hell hole down and behaved professionally, no infighting or competing for limelight but a genuine commitment of a small number of activists to successfully complete that campaign. The resulting convictions from both campaigns were the tip of the iceberg considering all that occurred during the relentless five year period and indeed many other ALF actions against other targets during that time period. The same can be said of those who secured the closure of Hillgrove, suppliers of cats to the vivisection industry.

Conversely, Aran and Luke may well plan the odd demo's now and then, put people off by associating with known racists, creating/supporting for the non humans first declaration then using that ridiculous fictitious argument stated above. Most demo’s they attend have been arranged by others and Aran has horrified those involved in the Newchurch campaign by fairly recently shouting (and interrupting a previous speech) on his megaphone about digging up grannies as if the success of that campaign related to him! Laughable, and actually, those imprisoned on behalf of those Guinea Pigs find him an absolute joke as well as a liability, so the laughing soon ceases. There was much dismay at pictures of Anoop, George and his sister taking pictures of each other masked up whilst setting alight removed circus posters and ridiculing the movement in doing so. Behaviour, along with the presence of the non humans first page is viewed by many offline activists as treachery towards those they purport to defend.

The comments made about Anthony and Keith Mann on here are inappropriate. The family need support as Keith is ill obviously and the cruelty of those comments are uncalled for to say the least. Nevertheless one is only as good as ones last action and Keith for all manner of reasons no doubt has been inactive for a very long time and taken a long overdue break. Sadly he has also simultaneously diverted attention away from the quest for animal liberation by falling prey to all manner of conspiracy theories which caused his popularity to wane dramatically. This has angered his brother Anthony who is naturally protective not only of his brother but also of the reputation he enjoyed by Keiths natural charisma and infamy. It's true that people are frightened of Anthony because unfortunately not only does he threaten violence to people online he has publicly conducted himself in a shamefully aggressive manner at an animal rights gathering when he realised he could no longer surf the wave of his brothers fame and was at the time also defending Anoop Ghale who began this decimation, it's surprising they are still friends considering how much she has ranted "I do not think ACAB!" and boasts how she would not hesitate to inform. Little wonder she is highly suspected to be on the payroll, along with others spoken of here. Also it certainly appears that Anthony does abuse steroids and has done for years which would account for his aggression as well as the physical indicators such as his bloated facial features. The best thing for the Mann brothers, with the greatest of respect is healing, from cancer, steroid abuse and mental health issues, non of which are a laughing matter.

Perhaps what links us all wherever we stand on the existence of the hallmaks v's non humans first is the current documentary on TV this evening regarding the capability of a meteorite wiping out the human race and handing our planet back to those who know how to look after it, something else on TV regarding earthquakes this evening brings to mind the manner in which the earth is shifting and shaking in her attempt to rid the species which plague her. But in the meantime, like it or not, we human animals are the voice of our non human sisters and brothers. Hating other humans doesn't work, discouraging people away from internationality is counter productive. It discredits and indeed sabotages our movement. Therefore the busiest, quietest and most effective activists as well as a majority of keyboard warriors denounce the non humans first declaration as a counterproductive act of treachery towards animals because they need us and they need us to simply get on with it. It's no accident that this debate has sprung up after the badger cull, as activists were busy doing just that rather than deal with the ridiculousness of the NHFD.

Responses to this contribution are predictable, an onslaught of abuse from Anoop, criticism over reserving it's contributory authors rights to their anonymity by Nazi apologists Aran and his side kick Luke, now that Jon Proctor no longer serves as Arans mouthpiece. But that's okay because fortunately, many people are still, and always will be quietly getting on with it, making significant changes to the lives many animals. Scenarios' which will not appear online in order to gain praise and adulation at the expense of security and animal freedom.

Chris & John Hall and Farmer Brown.

Multi authored

@multi authored

02.01.2014 04:52

Thank you



02.01.2014 06:08

Tho i don't know if to be offended or laugh at being called the mouth piece i agree with the rest of the article


I could take a pretty good guess who you are...

02.01.2014 11:34

You make a lot of assumptions... You could only know, or claim to know a lot of that stuff if you are a cop... Are you ? Infact, who are you? My money says you sit on your fat probably not even vegan ass all day slagging people off, you seem to know a lot about everyone - @mutltiauthor

Why will nobody actually slag me, my family or my friends off without being anonymous?


Ok George

02.01.2014 13:36

The animals don't need you nor do they need your gang of twats on facebook. Slagged. Name given.



02.01.2014 13:45

Paul who? You know nothing about me and the fact that you base your information on rumour (since I've never spoken to you) just shows how backwards and gullible you are. Paul what...?


Money for animals or popularity

02.01.2014 14:09

Seeing as the Non Humans First page keeps popping up in the sponsored adverts links on peoples pages it is clear that money is being spent to advertise the page to prove how popular the admins are. Bugger the shelters, or any other animal causes that could have benefited from that money. Mind you I don't think anything is more important than the cult of Aran to Aran. Stop spending money on advertising the page. Shameful.


@George (House)

02.01.2014 14:44

It's common knowledge amongst the movement - who you are, what you stand for and what your intentions are. You're a shit stirring fascist apologist to cut a long story short, who merely hides under the banner of animal rights.


Full of sh!t Paul.

02.01.2014 14:53

Have you ever spoken to me regarding such matters Paul, still don't know who you are. Obviously a barking Coward. I hear a lot of things about a lot of people Paul,, I don't believe or act on it until I know for a fact what the situation is. Now please, be a decent person, get your facts correct and politely fuck off back to cloud cuckoo land. - thank you


@Multi authored

02.01.2014 16:02

The reason I changed my mind was not because of the reason you state. I changed my mind because good activists were being banned or harassed due to their human rights views. I also saw it as hugely hypocritical that activists (including myself) were willing to stand alongside speciesists on human rights demos, but not anti-human rights persons on AR demos. The arguments of 269life convinced me that beyond this often (but not always) humanitarian improvements harmed non-human animals more widely (increased meat consumption, etc).

I will not address the personal attacks on me as they are childish. I do not boast about what I do like is claimed, the only part of what I do that I publicise is demos to get others to attend, everything else I do I keep private.

In regards to interrupting someone, this was not an official speech but rather someone talking when everyone wanted to chant, local activists were tapping me on the back asking me to cut in and start chanting – so I did.

Contrary to popular belief, I have no wish to infight, I want a solution that everyone is happy with.



02.01.2014 16:16

"I want a solution that everyone is happy with".
Leave the movement.


@ yellow and brown

02.01.2014 16:23

What's with your comments to beetroot? This is not a dating site for perverts. But you are funny.

Not amused


02.01.2014 16:25

I have spent a small amount of my personal money on promoting the page, I do not use anyone elses money. While others my age may go out drinking at the weekends, I spend the little money I have on animal causes including a very small amount on the page in question. The reason for this is I feel the pages message is important, for the reasons outlined in the above post and because of the argument set out by the 269life campaign regarding humanitarian projects often harming non-human animals. My aim is to create a group of people that can work together on projects without the need to argue about human rights issues, I feel the page is the best way of doing this. I hope this explains to your satisfaction why I choose to spend my own money on this, not that it is necessarily your business.



02.01.2014 16:35

So you are paying to advertise your NHF site on FB whilst all the time claiming people are flocking to support you. Paid promotion certainly lends a helping hand there.
Thanks for the clarification in admitting that NHF is a sponsored, advertised site on Facebook.



02.01.2014 16:42

Happy to if you are volunteering to take on the many projects I help out with. Perhaps we can meet up and you can take on all of it and I will quit?



02.01.2014 16:46

Most pages use the paid suggestion option for some of their posts. It does not force anyone to 'like' the page, just gets them to see the posts.



02.01.2014 16:49

Paul G right? :)


Daniel Carter

02.01.2014 18:45

Please past this to all interested parties. Daniel Carter is no longer coming to AR demos.
I have spoken to Daniel and asked him if he would stay away from AR demos due to the people in our movement making a big issue over his attendance. I have asked him this, and he has agreed to it voluntarily, because of those in the movement using his attendance to attack campaigns. This is harming non-human animals, which is my sole concern.

Daniel is not the type of bonehead 'Nazi' that goes around attacking people, rather he is the sort of person that has read political books and formed some ideas. Daniel has expressed to me that he does not hate any race and thinks all humans and animals should be treated with kindness. I have said to him that whatever he may personally think National Socialism really is about, being National Socialist doesn't get across his actual viewpoint nor does working with the BNP, etc. I have asked Daniel to consider all this and I will keep talking to him. I would encourage other people to also talk to him.

My hope is Daniel, and all other human beings, will move away from human politics and focus on non-human animals.

Please further note that I did not invite Daniel to the D4U demo, nor was I a organiser or admin of that demo.



02.01.2014 19:55

this certainly looks like the end of all credibility for Aran Mathai, Luke Steele, Luke Beavers, George House, Anthony Mann, Anoop Ghale and any other fash friendly fuckwit that is pushing a pro-fascist-animal-rights agenda.

Posting bollocks in the comments here to try and annoy the mods into taking the original post down? No surprise there. Grow the fuck up.

Kindergarten Watch

Aran really ???

03.01.2014 01:36

We have to ask ourself what are arans motives for setting up such a stupidly racist group.
Is it not he's just craving attention and trying to cause a fight lets not forget he was pro hallmarks and tried to get people banned mainly his ex girlfriend Louis.

George house is a well known shit stirring brat who thinks his pathetic attempt at ALF earns him any respect well George all your actions did was make the real activists aware how much of an idiot you are and how much we need to avoid you .

Proctor: what to say about him he was aran's lapdog everywhere aran wanted to fight he would send proctor in first. Proctor is an arsehole who has a long way to go before earning anyone trust again but these people can be worked with again.

Mann; Its very unfair at the moment to attack the mann's known Keith's illness so i will say nothing on the issue

Hallmarks v Non hallmarks: This is a repetitive subject it keeps coming up time and time again. Real activists just get on with fighting for animals instead of being keyboard warriors.
Racism is a form of speciesism Maybe aran mathai needs to read his own articles try this one for example:

I'm not surprised this happened after the badger cull and not during as people had no time to be brats on social media they just had to get on and do the work needed for the badgers.
Tho i state racists would not have been made welcome at either zone and we in fact turned away several racists making it clear they were not welcome.

Old Timer

It is true

03.01.2014 02:21

that Aran spent his time when he was pro hallmarks trying to get people banned he had personal issues with. Maybe that is why he turned against the hallmarks because he couldn't use them for his own gain.



03.01.2014 02:26

Why oh why oh why oh why.

Yo yo


03.01.2014 10:41

As a human [ non vegan ] this has been an interesting and enlightening read. As a long term anti fascist and associate of many vegans, animal rights activists and hunt sabs this article has been a real eye opener. The blurb that humans should stop campaigning for human rights issues and only concentrate on non human rights says it all really about where the fash friendly freaks are coming from.If they don't give a shit about humans full stop why would they give a shit about neo nazis ? very very disturbed way of looking at life. Would these types think it was ok for a convicted child molester to attend there demos as long as they were vegan ? by the comments by some on here I don't think some of you would give a shit .I really hope these views are marginal in what is the greater animal rights community otherwise your all fucked.

concerned of gipton

Concerned of Gipton - you hypocrite!!!

03.01.2014 13:24

If you were that concerned you would aim to be more consistent yourself in your ethics and you would be vegan by now after such a lot of associating with hunt sabs and vegans as well as anti-fascists.. you really have NO business telling the AR movement how it should be if you are not rejecting animal exploitation yourself!
I don't like fascists, but at least they don't tend to farm and exploit and mass murder other races of humans for their food!
You posting here is like a fascist telling the anti-fascist movement how it should conduct itself, so either go vegan, then you have a right to a view on this, or otherwise go away.
And unlike some ppl I always put my name and contact details as I am not a coward who hides!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

"I don't like fascists, but at least"

03.01.2014 13:37

Lesley Irene Dove, a virtual mother to these pro-fascist facebook orientated shits. Ignorance of her insane ramblings is bliss.


Bullies and hypocrites!

03.01.2014 13:42

Might as well get it out in the open, Paul is almost certainly Gravett!
He bullies anyone who is pro-life as well, I have been enough on the receiving end of his nastiness for more than 20 years, for no other reason than me being openly pro-life. I tried to not retaliate for such a long time, but now I see him attempting to bully Aran and George who are both good AR activists, and it has to be said that bullies come in all types and even anti-fascists can be bullies!
And so much for the anti-fascists caring so much about equality and human rights, they do not even care about the pre-born, who like the animals can't defend themselves. They are worse than not caring, many of them are actively hateful to those who defend the most defenceless of all humans. Hypocrites, so many of them!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


03.01.2014 14:06

but not a word Lesley about the vile bullying that has gone on here conducted by the racists, faciests and their sympathisers. No of course, you're their best friend.

not surprised really

@Old Timer

03.01.2014 14:35

I NEVER tried to get the person who's name you misspelled banned under the Hallmarks, I tried to get the person that physically attacked her banned. It wasn't a 'racist attack' so no one cared.


Cops playpen

03.01.2014 15:00

Can we just ignore this. Iv seen some vile comments being thrown about by the police informer ghale and must say this is not helpful to ANYONE

Now I don't want to be seen as being bossy but LEAVE IT ALONE


Judean People's Front

03.01.2014 22:08

Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People’s Front?
Reg: Fuck off!
Brian: Excuse me?
Reg: Judean People’s Front. We’re the People’s Front of Judea! Judean People’s Front. Cawk.
Francis: Wankers.
Reg: No, piss off.
Brian: I don’t want to sell this stuff, it’s only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.
Judith: Are you sure?
Brian: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
Reg: Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you’d have to really hate the Romans.
Brian: I do!
Reg: Oh, yeah? How much?
Brian: A lot!
Reg: Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front.
Stan: Yeah, the Judean People’s Front.
Reg: Yeah. Splitters.
Stan: And the Popular Front of Judea.
Reg: Yeah. Splitters.
Stan: And the People’s Front of Judea.
Reg: Yea… what?
Stan: The People’s Front of Judea. Splitters.
Reg: We’re the People’s Front of Judea!
Stan: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
Reg: People’s Front!
Francis: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
Reg: He’s over there. [points to a lone man]
Reg, Stan, Francis, Judith: SPLITTER!


which one next week?

03.01.2014 22:47

Yes Aran, you do seem to change your loyalties between groups quite often. Thanks for this timely example of what you've been doing.

pots and kettles

@pots and kettles

03.01.2014 23:08

If you think 'changing loyalties' between groups is what the Judean People's Front scene is satirising, you misunderstood completely.


FAO lesley

04.01.2014 09:57

Thanks for your well thought out reply . Since reading your reply I'm now going to go vegan. does that qualify me to make a comment ? going on your previous reply what has pre-life got to do with animal rights ? nothing if animal rightists aren't interested in human rights . can you answer me a question please , as to wether it would be appropriate if a convicted child killer would be welcome in your anything goes as long as its for the animals little scene ?
The reason I felt qualified to comment in the first place was I've known some very good people who've been involved in your scene and was quite shocked to read some of the stuff on here , I'm interested in the debate your having amongst yourselves and am trying to understand some of the bizarre positions.
many years ago I used to have to read hate letters sent by a well known nazi kevin Whatmought who would bombard us with poison about gassing jews then tell us about about being a vegan.and how that somehow made him ok.
Am I right in thinking one of the persons on here of jewish background has a brother who became a neo nazi ? regards COG

concerned of gipton


04.01.2014 14:05

COG, first of all I do not believe you would go vegan right now just on my say so if you've not already from your long association with vegans. I will respond anyway.
Pro-life has got the idea of respect for life in common with AR, and it is the pro-human rights Hallmarks crowd I am challenging on this, challenging them to be consistent if they care so much about humans. If they are not pro-life as the most basic human rights commitment then I for one can hardly take them seriously, if they are anti-racism and anti-homophobia but not against killing the preborn child, which seems a far bigger crime than most other crimes against human life. I also would not find the presence appropriate of a convicted child killer in AR (like that would ever happen, it's one of those silly hypotheticals like the desert island scenario).
I know nothing of Kevin Whatmought, he sounds crazy and a liability, each situation should be taken as individual. I do not know anything about this brother of someone who is Neo-Nazi, if it is true or not, surely it does not reflect on the activist in question. Why is it even relevant then if an activist has a Neo-Nazi relative? So what? I have a cousin who is a dairy farmer and mass killer and abuser of animals, same difference.

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


04.01.2014 14:54

"Think ill need to unblock you now to have a look at the ME ME ME comments that usually fill your apparent AR page"

Its funny how personal pages become AR pages with you lot. Orwellian double speak, but what would we expect? Lesley supposidly shouldn't speak about herself on her own page, I should not speak about the demos I attend, Luke and George should never mention their ALF convictions despite it being a major life event for them and exactly the sort of thing people talk about on a personal page and the list goes on.



04.01.2014 15:52

I think PGTips questions were aimed at the apologist Lesley Dove. Are you her mouthpiece then? Or do you all speak as one?


read all the comments in the link

04.01.2014 16:03

Aran have you read this ? This is what your mate gets up to
Read all the comments
Openly admits infiltrating demos gives him a buzz
Has been to loads of AR demos ?
Hes best mate runs Redwatch and likes threatening antis remind you of anything ?




04.01.2014 17:18

I know you lot are a little slow, so I will repeat it, Daniel isn’t coming to any AR demos anymore. I did not invite him to the demo he is pictured at, nor was I an admin or organiser of that demo.


You did invite him

04.01.2014 17:27

You invited him thats for sure maybe not through the event page yes that was Luke but you posted the event to hes timeline its still there so you wouldnt call that an invite?
I have seen you telling people what a lovely guy he is today so all these bullshit statements you are posting all over are worthless and all lies
Also McLoving the way you are posting all over facebook YOUR own links to YOUR own pages (ego much) and saying its a new start for AR lol the only people i see following your sad arse are the houses, little beggar Jake and a few racists Your going to do really well the animals thank you so much



04.01.2014 17:39

No I invited Daniel to the call in day (this was after the demo he attended, which I did not invite him to, nor did I have him on my list at the time) - there can be no harm in him calling Dogs4us to complain from home.

I would suggest rather than spy on my page you do something to help animals.


I am out of UK AR!!!!

04.01.2014 18:09

Actually PG Tips will get his or her way. I have to announce that I do have someone marvellous I may be able to completely hand the deer campaign over to, who has been a great support and made the campaign stronger, so as of now I am getting out of if.. I could not have just abandoned it before without someone who might take it on, but will do that, not for the sake of any of you but because it means it may get more support without me (we shall see if that in fact happens or if you are full of shit and never cared about the deer anyway!). It is the deer that I care about and I want it to be a successful campaign! I am sick to death of the UK AR movement.. congratulations on getting your wish and getting a long time campaigner to throw in the towel, maybe I will feel better and healthier for it too! From now on I am putting myself and my own family first, something I should have done a long time ago! I did not sign up to AR to continually get personally attacked over things I cannot help, such as my severe allergy to smoke which I've had to deal with my entire life. Funny how you so-called Human Rights ppl do not care anything about my right to do what I need to do to look after my own health! I have had enough, those comments from certain anonymous cowards have crossed the line.

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


04.01.2014 18:15

Dont let them win this is what they want


Who is "everyone" who can't stand me anyway - no guts to say stuff to my face???

04.01.2014 18:23

This is what PG Tips actually wrote, I prefer things to remain as written so as not to protect cowardly anonymous bullies and for the perpetrators to be tracked down via their IP addresses which I am sure would be possible:

Answer the question
04.01.2014 14:36
Answer the questions Lesley dove
How is the young student you assaulted ?
How is the taxi driver you spat at in the street ?
How is the coach driver after you grassed on him ?
How are your daughters coping with such a mother ?
You think its OK to attack "humans" because they smoke ?
Why don't you get of your fat frumpy arse stop complaining and put that energy into saving a animal ?

Deer cull ? everyone cares about the deer its the old deer running the campaign that everyone cant stand hand it over to someone else
Think ill need to unblock you now to have a look at the ME ME ME comments that usually fill your apparent AR page or then again maybe not

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


04.01.2014 18:29

Lesley, this is not UK AR. Most of the individuals on here have no significance outside of FB and most of AR have never heard of them.
You are not the only one to have been bullied on here and you've got off quite lightly in comparison to others. I think what you meant to say is that you're leaving a group of ego's who sit on FB all day. No harm in that, but no need to leave real AR.


Some can DO, others can only criticise!

04.01.2014 18:30

02.01.2014 16:42

Happy to if you are volunteering to take on the many projects I help out with. Perhaps we can meet up and you can take on all of it and I will quit?

Good response there Aran, maybe I should throw down the same gauntlet to PG Tips, re deer cull campaign?? I do not think that they are offering to do anything to save the deer are they??

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

@Lesley Dove

04.01.2014 19:33

Don't forget to take fascist friendly Aran Mathai and his gang of facebookers with you. Cheers.

About Time

@ Anon - Grow up

04.01.2014 20:43

You say anti hallmarkers have no significance? Please divulge the groups currently active under the hallmarks banner... Shac hasent made a sound in months since they went all out on the hallmarks...

To attack one of the few remaining persistent animal rights campaigns still going such as the deer cull because you 'don't like Lesley' is completely childish. Anti hallmarkers don't provoke you idiots, so why provoke us? You have successfully segregated the movement, now leave it. You do your non existent imaginary activism and we will do our actual real life activism that saves plenty more animals than you do. You no longer need to spout your bullshit around for people to make a choice of who they want to involve themselves with, so articles like the above are irrelevant.

Animals are currently locked away in the most brutal of places, but where are the campaigns from your side? No, they don't exist do they? Because all of your efforts.. Hah, are being put into attacking people you don't see eye to eye with. Your campaign of harassment to completely undeserving individuals who want to help animals can no longer go any further than it already has, it will only destroy the remainder of this movement more. Not that you care anyway.

A retaliation to this comment will be continuing your campaign and playing right into the hands of the state, and I will assume that the last part of the second from last paragraph is confirmation that you truly 100% do not care about the animals. I won't reply after this comment anyway.

Well done to all of the ARA's who continue to put in their all for the animals despite this insanity, without you the movement would be an empty shell. Peace x


What do you guys want?

05.01.2014 02:04

Apart from me to leave the movement (not going to happen) or for me to support banning people for their personal views on human issues (not going to happen), what exactly do you want me to do? All sensible answers posted with your real name attached will be considered.


You need to ask

05.01.2014 04:17

Aran you need to ask real campaigners what we want ??. We want nothing more than you to stop being a fascist apologist and giving racists and nazis a platform within the animal rights movement.

We would also welcome an apology for all the trouble you have caused with that stupid fascist apologist group non human first.

Human emancipation animal liberation always has been always will be

Real Animal Activist

Grow some balls anonymous cowards inc. PGTips!

05.01.2014 09:51

I, for one, will never even consider apologising for callling for a more inclusive and far less bitchy movement, where we can tolerate our human differences, for the sake of the animals, (and our own wellbeing).
And when are ppl going to put their real names by their comments?
If you are so sure of yourselves, state who you are who are attacking Aran, myself, and others who will not give in to your thought-policing!
Go on grow some balls!
So brave behind your computers aren't you?

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

And another thing..

05.01.2014 09:55

My own page on Facebook is my page, I will put on it what the hell I like, it is mostly about AR but not only, sometimes pro-life, occasionally other stuff. I never said it is 100% for AR only. And yes I will post up articles poking fun at smokers occasionally. You don't have to like it.

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


05.01.2014 11:19

So your not leaving the uk ar movement after all? Shame!

When are you going to get around to answering the questions regarding your violence towards ie defenceless school girls?

Mods-please dont delete this time, Lesley has stated shes happy to have the questions publicised and Id really like to hear her answers.


Answers ?

05.01.2014 12:28

Leslie you reposted up my questions yet have still failed to answer any of them ? Is it because you know your actions were out of order and you feel ashamed now ? Is it because you would rather have a argument, avoiding any constructive conversations ? Why did you come to this post to begin with and stick your oar in as per when it isnt needed ? Yet when someone asks you about some of your serious actions you keep banging on about this that and the other still failing to get the point ?


I refuse to respond to anonymous cowards again

05.01.2014 13:31

It really is that simple! Have none of you ever lost your temper at anyone, or felt scared enough to react violently when threatened?

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

it's crumbling...

05.01.2014 13:33

Well said @real animal activist! I would like to second your statement in response to Arans question and also @multiorthored, accurate analogy on how Anoop Ghale handed Aran the baton in their relay race to decimate the UK animal liberation movement in spite of his protestations to the contrary.

A shift indeed! How interesting! word is that co author of the non humans first declaration page and master of manupulation Luke Beevers has 'unliked' said page and has made a statement which contradicts it! Progress or manipulation.... hmm time will tell but he's been well and truly sussed. Again.

Luke Beevers has still failed to acknowledge and take responsibility for that which Aran interestingly disassociated himself from when he said "it wasn't my demo!". The fact that, as pointed out by anti fascist crews locally it is clear he knew known fash were to attend his demo. Are we supposed to believe that an intelligent young man such as Luke Beevers who has studied Law claimes to have missed the swastika in the 'going' paige of his own demo?

Make your minds up lads.... "I didn't know he/they were coming" AND "so what if he/they were we welcome them!"

Consider the fact there are pictures of Danial Carter (who racist apologist Aran Mathai continues to defend by painting him as some sort of a bookish intellectual) has been pictured giving the salute over a white power flag. Demonstrating behaviour that the rest of society abhors, creating a platform for then linking it directly to the cause for animal liberation in a manner which could not harm the movement any more if he tried.

And then comes the punch line! The man's been banned! Shouldn't Luke Beevers, whose failiure to acknowledge or take responsibility for somehow 'missing' the swastika on Carters profile page now recognise how he and his puppet 'master' Aran Mathai themselves have resorted to the same banning outcome they themselves heavily criticised. "he went voluntarily I hear them cry" in an attempt to justify their no ban stance even though the nhfd itself states nazis behaving like nazis on demos are not welcome, a rediculous statement considering these far right freaks and easily linked on line for the world to see as in the latest case involving Carter. nhfd heavily exaggerated the happening of such bans which have been used as a last resort by groups of genuinely compassionate people who have in fact attempted meaningful dialouge with individuals in order to avoid having to ban them in the first place. Anoop was invited for mediation for instance, something which is also encourged by the nhfd prior to banning someone. We have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that banning the likes of Anoop has been inappropriate as level headed activists would never turn anyone away unless they were counter productive.

Anyway it's of noteworthy interest that Luke Beevers has unliked the nhfd supporters page, he's done the right thing as not doing so would simply render his public statement as meaningless.

It's crumbling Aran. Sure you'll talk numbers of 'likes' on your dreadful page but it's activists in the fields and on streets on a regular basis that matter among other actions. It was never going to last here anyway as you are widely known for suggesting that you and other 269'ers are the only ones who recognise the emergency situation our most vulnerable are in. You are widely known as a counter productive liability to the very movement you claim to support.

For the animals. Ghale.

ghale for a laugh

Cops here I think

05.01.2014 13:53

You have to wonder how many of these anonymous cowards are the police trying to break up the movement, and jeopardise important campaigns by making activists feel they are not wanted in AR! No real ARA would behave the way they have been behaving here! If PGTips and other anonymous cowards can show you are not the cops, do so now by revealing some real identities!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

Priceless lesley dove

05.01.2014 14:00

"show you are not the cops, do so now by revealing some real identities! "


Mediation what a freakin' joke!

05.01.2014 15:11

How can you expect ppl to be willing to go to mediation after the way so many of us have been treated? I certainly would not want to go to mediation without being given the information on exactly WHO has been writing here as various anonymous names, including PG Tips, and dragging up old alleged incidents and half-truths about myself and other ppl.. but I do not think anyone was ever really interested in mediation.. it was never a genuine offer was it, to anyone, really?

Because all some of you ever wanted was Anoop out, Aran out, Luke B out, George out, Anthony out, Me out, even Luke Steele out, on nothing more or less than the basis of his brother's politics(!), even though Luke is one of the best and intelligent anti-vivisection campaigners we have!

I would only go to mediation with certain ppl from the Hallmarks side, eg Debbie Deboo would be an example of a reasonable person, and as for the type who write this vile rubbish no way would I ever trust them as far as I could throw their sorry asses, not in a million lifetimes!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

Choose the river not the bowl

05.01.2014 15:25

Hello everyone. I am not familiar with what has been discussed above but what I have found, that may be relevant and useful to finding some common ground, is this interview on bbc HardTalk with a man called Keith whose sincerity and integrity on speaking up for abused animals and activism is humbling and inspiring.
Calm, compassionate, considered and honest. Putting the needs of others before his own. Yes, one of the best interviews I've seen. Well done Keith.
For anyone who hasn't seen it or even if you have, may I suggest taking 20mins out and have a watch;


@Lesley Dove

05.01.2014 15:54

Mediation with fascist apologists who are trying to wreck the animal rights movement? Are you frickin dreaming?

No Platform

As stated.

05.01.2014 17:06

I will consider any reasonable statement containing the authors real name.


Go on what have you horrible lot got to hide?

05.01.2014 18:21

"Papers please", and you other anonymous cowards among the AR thought police, I do not think anyone could face any charges for being upfront who they are and what they have said, I will not call to press charges on anyone for their questions or remarks, even if it could have been considered harassment and libel/slander against me and others, I can't say fairer than that (though I cannot speak for others who have been libelled/slandered/harassed), I just want to know who is saying what and about whom. Obviously PGTips is too ashamed of him or herself to be in the open.. as are many of you trolls, because if you really stand by what you say you would not be so afraid to give real names! I am not afraid to, nor is Aran, you have no excuses any more! It would take a lot for me to press charges against a fellow ARA, it would have to be physical violence against me before I would do that, and then I would press charges, make no mistake, the book would be thrown at you PGTips and others!
When I know the identity of my attackers here then maybe I will reply more fully since you (PGTips in particular) clearly have NO real of the irrelevant issues you are raising about me, and I want to give some answers. What I do not understand is what relevance PGTips' questions to me have to the issue at hand. I would like to know how my issues with smokers (only raised to smear me) relate to alleged racists in AR.. go on please explain that someone, anyone, then also maybe I can explain what has really happened, although I think it has been explained before well enough to anyone caring to hear my side.
I will keep on asking for people to reveal their identities, until it is done!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

on the same topic

05.01.2014 18:56

please could the cowards from the NHS supporters who spent all night two nights ago posting old photo's of me (from when I was mostly wheelchair bound and before I lost 60 pounds in weight), who said disgusting things about my weight, my disability, my looks, my deceased mother and personal things in my life. Would they come forward please? Of course not. Or should I say 'coward' rather than 'cowards'.


Fat-shaming and ableism

05.01.2014 19:08

I too have been bullied by certain so called ARAs for my weight, and agree that remarks against Debbie were out of order, I've also been bullied on this very forum, over my own smoke allergy which is a form of disability/illness bullying, I will stand against that not only for myself but Debbie too.
I find it above all very odd that such behaviour would come from some on the supposedly anti-discrimination side! Hypocrites! They may be against racism but are not bothered about ppl being made ill through no fault of their own, due to an allergy or sensitivity which they already know about! People going to an AR demo on organised transport should be able to feel safe and be assured that laws against the driver lighting up a cigarette and smoking in a hired coach will be adhered to, and they should be able to rely on it that ppl will look out for them when they get made ill, and yet that did not happen for me. Shame on those who did not help and have sided with the scum driver.. I will never trust such ppl again! How dare PGTips make me out to be the villain for "grassing" that bastard of a driver when I had been made so ill! ARAs should support me not him!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

The kind of people we are dealing with here

05.01.2014 19:14

a quote, directed at me, beneath a picture of me, from one of the NHFS. These were quite rightly deleted by indymedia for being offensive.

"She is the real Moaner Lise though, whines about her health, is a really bad cake maker, oh and has had two failed pretend suicide attempts. Mind you if my girlfriend looked like her, I would want to kill myself too. Didn't her mum kill herself? Must be because she had such an ugly daughter who looks like she is a retard. "

I was also called a mong, a spastic, a retard, a munter.

Is this what we want in AR. I find the reference to my mother (who died four years ago of cancer incidently) particularly upsetting, I couldn't care less about the jibes about my looks. What kind of person would say things like that about someone's dead mother? I'm referencing it here just so everyone can see what kind of disgusting vile individuals the NHFS wants to welcome into its ranks.

I'm sure most of them are not like the individual I have quoted above. I hope not.


I condemn the statements about Debbie.

05.01.2014 19:33

As founder of Non-Humans First I fully condemn the statements about Debbie's disabilities and family issues. I do not know if they were from an activist or the police, either way they are not acceptable.



05.01.2014 19:36

Everyone knows who it is Aran


tick tock tick tock

05.01.2014 19:41

Debbie, I am appalled at what has been said about you and your mental health and the death of your mother. shamefull words from so called compassionate people.

Totally uncalled for and highly inappropriate.

Awam mathai... we, that is loads of us in the movement who have made real changes without going on about it, couldn't give a hoot what views on here you will and will not consider due to our right to protect our anonymity as your opinion counts for sweet FA.

Fact is sunshine, the clock is ticking for you and your fucked up racist NHFD Awam Mathai

tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock

You are fucked 'pal'

Mrs G Hammond ;-)

Gladys Hammond


05.01.2014 19:46

I don't know who it is any more than we can know who wrote this article, you are making the mistake I did by assuming you can guess authorship.


Disgusting anoop you really are VILE

05.01.2014 19:49

Anoop your stopping to even lower than everyone thought you were we all knew you were grass and scum but this is beyond sick

Your a disgrace to the animal animal rights and a utter shameful human being i hope you find peace in yourself as you clearly are a disturbed woman

And aran as i'm here i may as well comment.

Aran i think the only think thats pissed people off is this whole shit of acceptance of fascism you know how fractured the AR is atm it was not the smartest move to time it just when we are at our weakest (but then again my personal opinion)

jon proctor

@ jon proctor

05.01.2014 19:58

As noted I did not invite Daniel to the demo. He just turned up. I do not support banning people for their personal views, nor did anyone at the demo, so no one including me banned him. Because of all the fuss you lot have made I did speak to him and he voluntarily agreed not to come on any more demos – I don’t see what more you want me to do?



05.01.2014 20:29

Just to clarify i haven't posted any pictures of anyone on indymedia and never would. Though it should work both ways so I don't think you can really complain too much.


Social Primates do Politics

05.01.2014 20:51


You said
"I do not support banning people for their personal views,"

These are political views though aren't they?

I know yer average bovine doesn't do politics except for the odd plucky defence against predators.

Hey they got 'em surrounded! yea!

but yer average social primate does do politics, probly why we're so fucked

Ah Machiavelli, divide and rule anyone?.



05.01.2014 20:57

I didn't think it was you George and just to clarify I haven't posted any pictures on indymedia either. Ever. So not sure how it is supposed to work both ways.


Editorial guidelines

05.01.2014 21:03

Will people please stop abusing the comments, That includes reposting comments that we have hidden. It is a waste of your time and ours.

My guess is that the really offensive personal comments are being posted by a fascist.

Please read the guidelines and abide by them.

- Homepage:

Take your bile elsewhere anoop

05.01.2014 21:20

Anoop take your bile elsewhere we dont want it or need it

Aran can you not admit people who grass are a liability to the whole uk animal rights movement and need OUTING and BOOTING or will you work with grasses ?

The line has to be drawn somewhere and the line for most ar's is Racists / fascists / grasses OUT !

jon to anoop the police informing grass

Pictures of NHFD admins

05.01.2014 21:44

In an article about NHFD such pictures are relevant. If any of those named are not actually admins of the page, then their pictures should be removed as 'inaccurate'. Offensive comments posted with pictures of other activists who are not part of MHFD will continue to be removed under the personal attacks guideline.

As yet no-one has denied that Aran Mathai, George House and Sasha Booja are the admins. The picture of Daniel Carter is also relevant as it shows that he was at a demo.

- Homepage:


05.01.2014 21:55

Neither George House or Sasha are admins of NHF, nor have they ever been.


Images now removed

05.01.2014 22:14

It appears to be conjecture that George House or Sasha Boojor are admins, and therefore the comment claiming they are has been hidden as 'inaccurate'.

In future if you have an issue with moderation - DO NOT USE THE COMMENTS - contact the appropriate list: (publicly archived) or (not publicly archived).

Complaints about moderation will be hidden,

It is also probably time to stop the feeding the trolls........

All guideline breaking comments will continue to be hidden as speedily as we can manage.


What is your intention?

05.01.2014 22:54

Firstly thank you indymedia for finally removing the pictures and misleading information, though it was long overdue.
I'd just like to know what exactly it is you hallmarkers want me to do... Don't confuse that with the fact that I still don't give a shit, I just don't understand what you want, from any of us. Because you should realise I'm never going to stop acting on my beliefs based on what a bunch of liars and hippies are saying. So do tell me what you want, because you can pretty much completely forget me stopping my activism. :)



05.01.2014 22:57

George House
George House

Whether or not George House is an admin of the NHFD page is irrelevant - he IS asignatory of the Declaration, as can be seen on the 'About' section of the facebook page: -

In the House

Paul Gravett here

05.01.2014 23:08

I was named by Lesley Dove as the person calling himself Paul on here. That is untrue - I always use the name "Paul Vegan Anarchist" on Indymedia.

I do not know what this other person said about her and frankly I don't care. It has been my misfortune to know her since the eighties and during that time she has always been a divisive and pernicious figure in the movement.

She also has a history of aggression and violence towards those she dislikes. I was at the London Greenpeace Fair in 1989 when she attacked my friend and fellow activist, Helen Steel, grabbing her hair and pulling her to the floor. Lesley was not part of the group but turned up to hand out anti-choice propaganda. When asked to leave she turned violent.

I was also at a London Vegans meeting in the mid nineties when she again assaulted another activist. This time it was because she was asked if she could stop her baby crying or leave as the noise was disrupting the meeting. I should add the person doing this did it in a calm and polite manner but she turned violent. She was then banned from London Vegans for several years.

It is well known that we do not get on. In my opinion she probably has a personality disorder. That she remains in the animal rights movement after all she has done is testament to the tolerance and forgiveness of the people there. Anywhere else she would have been booted out decades ago.

Paul Vegan Anarchist

I don't really mind as long as its true

05.01.2014 23:37

As long as the information is correct and relevant I dont mind...

Nice one trying to piss me off though, you failed. Says a lot how much you stand behind what you say and do not stating your name though dosent it? :)


Who is interested in what happened that long ago?

06.01.2014 09:19

Seriously Gravett, what is your problem? You seem to be the one with a problem, unable to forgive anyone ever.. you are worse than the fundamentalist Christians who say ppl are going to hell for things such as being gay, except actually they are better because some of them occasionally forgive someone sometimes! You just go on punishing and punishing people forever! It is also the case that I apologised to Helen a few years ago and I am on good terms now with the person I had problems with at London Vegans. Nobody is interested in incidents over 20 years ago.. move on.. learn that ppl can and do change! It is hurting you more than it is hurting me for you to hang on to so much hatred!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

Paul, the mystery Paul

06.01.2014 09:21

I accept now I was wrong in my guess which Paul it was posting here, but you have to admit I had good reason to guess Gravett with his history of approving of banning anyone less than politically correct! I have no idea who the mystery Paul is then.

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


06.01.2014 09:31

So a person can do a few two bad things at difficult times in their life (eg second incident when exhausted from lack of sleep with a crying baby) and ppl remember these incidents for 20 yrs or more and keep holding it against that person, but the same person can then do lots of good campaigning and work bloody hard for years for AR, be nice to ppl for the most part, and rarely lose their rag with anyone, and nobody ever remembers that do they, DO THEY, GRAVETT??? You are a nasty little man.

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

Just pissed off aren't you Gravett?

06.01.2014 10:01

That you could not control your partner Chrissy and poison her mind to make her as malevolent towards me as you chose to be? She worked with me and was decent to me and maybe you did not like that! You're just pissed off that most ppl have seen that I am different now, although still pro-life, I have not backed down on defending the most vulnerable and defenceless same as the animals, I am far more peaceful in my ways these days than the angry young woman I was in the 80s and maybe even early 90s, and you cannot so easily turn ppl against me like you used to be able to with your vitriol.. as I say you are a nasty little man not even worth responding to..

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

My last word to Gravett

06.01.2014 10:16

If you think someone has a personality disorder or some other mental illness (not that I do have one that I know of) isn't it then very discriminatory and cruel to keep being hateful for something that you know they probably could not help doing at the time.. does this not come under the realm of mental illness and a cause for trying to show some understanding and compassion for the person affected? If you thought this you should have asked someone to talk to me about getting help, not continue a hate campaign against me for over 20 years.. completely nasty and inappropriate if you think I am actually mentally ill!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:


06.01.2014 12:31

Please edit the crap and hate being spewed out by Paul Gravett, most of what he said about things that happened so long ago is irrelevent to me wrongly believing he was the Paul on here attacking various other activists.

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

What's this?

06.01.2014 12:54

Lesley Dove's notepad? FS. Cull some of her comments please.


Racist houses

06.01.2014 12:57

So George you think its ok to mock what everyone is saying here by writing stupid status's regarding the KKK ? We all see your buddy Daniel has commented you will make great friends
i bet
Lets see how quick he is to infiltrate your demos (or lack of) ect and how quick you will go running to mummy, then again you do fuck all apart from big up your EGO so i suppose you wont have to worry about that too much
This whole article is a joke your all going round the houses no pun intended

Fascists are not welcome full stop !! Now run along kids


let everyone know

06.01.2014 14:12

Lesley, so show everyone who is this wonderful person for deer campaign?there were more than a few activists who really wanted to stand for this cause,but you made it impossible for them;(
why didn't we hear about any bigger steps in the campaign?show this person to others?another anti choice hysterical figure?or this just another bullshit?

curious vegan

Cop outs and trolls!

06.01.2014 14:50

6.01.2014 14:12

"Lesley, so show everyone who is this wonderful person for deer campaign?there were more than a few activists who really wanted to stand for this cause,but you made it impossible for them;(
why didn't we hear about any bigger steps in the campaign?show this person to others?another anti choice hysterical figure?or this just another bullshit?
curious vegan"

What? I never banned anyone from the deer campaign, and I never refused to work with anyone, just the opposite have been crying out for help for 4 yrs on this! I am sure ppl who know me and do not just go on this pathetic childish gossip about me will testify to that.. and actually the person I work with closely now on it is strongly pro-choice, and we do not let it be a problem between us! Why should it be since I do not demand that my fellow campaigners agree with me on non-AR issues? It makes me quite OK at working with a variety of ppl! I will say no more until I know who these (imaginary) activists are! It's just a big cop out on their part to do nothing really.. clearly! Perfect excuse that you do not get on with the organiser.. I am reasonable with anyone who behaves reasonably to me! They never gave me a chance whoever they are, just for the sake of their egos coming higher in their priorities than the animals.
I do not want to drag my friend's name into this, real activists in London know who she is! You prove you are not a real activist in London by not knowing her!!!!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

Lesley has been my friend for over 20 years

07.01.2014 15:42

It is unfair to call her a "virtual mother" to fascists. She is a real and devoted mother to her three (life-long vegan) children.

I don't agree with Lesley's insistence that working with racists is no different from working with people with whom one disagrees on issues like abortion. (I think Ronnie Lee made the same argument once.) To me, doing so would bring veganism/animal campaigning into disrepute and alienate people of colour.

However, Lesley herself has never been remotely racist or homophobic. Ever. She has always, the whole time I have known her, she has consistently opposed racism, sexism, war, the death penalty, animal (ab)use, homelessness, homophobia and abortion (except where the woman's health is at risk).

Katharine A Gilchrist

What was the point again?

07.01.2014 23:22

I have had reasons to be hateful and confused good enough for anyone at one time or another. But it was nearly all talk. The main thing it seems that holds me from finding my way back is that I came out of it insisting on being a better person. It's turning to kindness that will get you ostracised in all directions. Focusing on your persecution just brings you right back home to the persecutors on whatever side you chose. What ever tickled you fancy so long as you were hating. How will we feel about that one? But I don't want my turn at fucking the world just because someone else fucked it. That's not social responsibility, it's misguided jealousy, and here is why. Why should that person have comfort in that position, you are saying, and if it is not jealousy, then why have you no routes to fix any of these people whose hate is only all talk and confusion? What exactly is it you are trying to do for me, who is a genuine minority citizen? Show me how well you can fight for the right(eousness)? Look how the EDL have scooped the word from you. DEFENSE. It's GONE. You've LOST it because here you are, LOSING it. You cannot fight fire by throwing fire around like a load of ninnies. The way to fight fire with fire is that you burn a border bare before the fire gets there, and when it does it has nothing left to burn. TEMPER is not ANGER. Solidarity is not suspicion. You are all acting like the last time you had an aquaintence you gave them your bank details. I wish I could unfuck the world, but in the meantime, please stop punishing people for things based on talk because for one thing, any of you who think you are anarchists are proving you'd wreck it in short order. You are supposed to be fixing it. Not just hunting. Or else you're lying. End of story.

Not so upstanding


08.01.2014 00:33

Erm... don't really know what the above post means, congratulations to anyone who can make sense of it though.

What is clear is that creating an open door policy for fascists as per the NHFD will alienate people, put off more potential activists and sabotage attempts to achieve freedom for the pictured victim.


The four step model for being baffling.

08.01.2014 03:41

Step one: claim human political discourse is irrelivent to ar, even though its created by actual political humans: friends and colleagues who deserve respect and protection from oppression too. Leaving our black, Asian, disabled or gay friends and colligues open to potential hate abuse (as we've seen above). Say no one should be banned for say, screaming at an Asian woman in the street, as long as they don't do it on a demo.

Step two: find that people attend demos who have clear fascist politics, attracted by an open door policy.

Step three: Act surprised when the association with those who champion the abuse of other humans, consider some people less equil than others and toy with the imagery of regimes which tortured and murdered millions, causes a bit of a flap.

Step four: "politely ask a fascist not to attend demos".

What exactly did you expect? If you build it, they will come.

Most of society abhors faschists. They won't be drawn to a movement that welcomes them. We claim to fight oppression, inequality and want to stop an 'animal holocaust', while welcoming those who support events that coined that term. We want wider society to join us, but tell them their rights are irrelivent. We risk leaving valued and loved collogues open to abuse, for nothing more than their colour or sexuality. We fail to protect the innocent. Which is a new approach in AR, I assume.

Fillet o pish

Hypocrisy and double standards of the "ban racists" gang.

08.01.2014 08:24

Can I ask why so many ARAs use the "Black Power" salute for total liberation as in some ppl's profile pic alongside the animal paw (I notice it on Ronnie's profile and have asked him about it just now). I believe there has been a lot of trouble surrounding a vegan on demos who may be into "White Power". Personally I have NO time for any movements connected to skin colour and it equally bothers me the use of the "Black Power" salute which is on many ARA's pictures. Maybe some of them did not know it was associated with black power, but if they do know, isn't this just as inappropriate and racist as white power being connected to AR? I see NHF cross it out and ppl object, but they should NOT object if they themselves would do the same to a white power salute! I find it absolutely objectionable the "fist in the air" now I know it means black power, and I am not even white power I am just for equality!
Yet again I expose and question the hallmarkers hypocrisy!

Lesley Dove
mail e-mail:

Lesley, no Offence, But

08.01.2014 13:46

the White Power salute is very different from the Black Power salute. I know someone has recommended you read the article/post about "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" and I hope you find time to read it. It makes excellent points.

I would say, "Next, you'll be saying that feminists are unfair to men". But I hope that isn't the case.

Katharine A Gilchrist

Raised/Clenched Fist

08.01.2014 22:24

That anyone who purports to believe in social justice and human rights can equate Black Power with White Power is absurd. They are not on an equal playing field. Black Power developed in the US in the sixties as a response to centuries of white supremacism: slavery, colonialism, segregation, lynching, the KKK, discrimination and prejudice.

Black Power grew from the civil rights movement and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee which campaigned against the Vietnam War. Some of its supporters were separatists, saying blacks and whites couldn't live together, but most weren't. The Black Panther Party, for instance, believed in fighting existing white-dominated power structures but not in a racial war.

Bobby Seale, co-founder of the Black Panther Party said: "Working class people of all colours must unite against the exploitative, oppressive ruling class...we believe our fight is a class struggle and not a race struggle." Black Power is definitely not the same as the racist ideology of black supremacy which maintains that black people are superior to other races.

The "Black Fist Salute" is actually but one version of the raised/clenched fist salute which is a symbol of solidarity and resistance that has been used by many different campaigns and movements - mainly but not exclusively of the left - since the early twentieth century. It has been co-opted by new struggles as they have emerged, such as the Occupy movement, Earth First! and the animal rights movement.

Paul Vegan Anarchist


09.01.2014 12:29

Go play with your new fascist friend Daniel Carter


Support your Lush shop

09.01.2014 13:12

BOdy shop is owned by L'Oreal so please buy your stuff from Lush, it's ace.
A cruelty free shopper for sure

Anti Body shop

Please go play with some traffic children

09.01.2014 17:59

This is getting seriously boring now
Most of the people commenting are just haters

Bored of this shit

sensible Post

09.01.2014 19:06

Hi All.

I am writing this to ask you all to knock it on the head. This trolling has to stop the personal insults and wild accusations also have to stop. it is not helping the animals we are meant to be fighting for.

This whole thread was about racism and fascism and its head within the Animal rights.
This battle has been had before over the hallmarks and exclusions and banning. There is a time and a place to debate this Indymedia is not it (sorry and no offence to the mods)

This war of words has been bitter and has resulted in a lot of heated and while eye accusations being flung about like confetti. I think its time we all took stock looked at ourself and took ourself away from indymedia and this tread.

Lesley i know there is a heated and tence fight between yourself and paul but again this is neither the time nor the place to have that fight or debate.

We have got to remember this whole thread was about some activists disputing other activists it should of been left off indymedia and if a discussion was needed and yes i do think there is a discussion to be had. it should be done away from the public eye.

I think if any new activists saw this thread they would either laugh or be ashamed. its time to end this trolling and the mud slinging. Non human first do their thing and those animal activists who oppose non human first do their thing.

We have to get new activists on board not turn them away with bitter old arguments.

The imc's have moderated this post extreamly well deleting posts that have contained some disgusting and vulgar things being said so thank you to the indy mods

This is my last post on this. I do hope this is all your last posts on this thread.


Jonathon proctor
- Homepage:


09.01.2014 19:11

Thats bloody hilarious coming from you
Words of wisdom from one of the biggest trolls in the movement


@Jonathon proctor

09.01.2014 19:18

While you're here, again, why did you march with the National Front in the first place?


An explanation about moderation (for the noobs)

12.01.2014 08:20

There is no doubt that this article has generated a lot of controversy. It has exposed a fault-line in the AR movement that urgently needs addressing, it has brought lots of people to Indymedia (not all of whom were even aware of its existence before someone - not as far as I know one of the Indymedia mods - published the article on this site. We are an open publishing site, but we do have guidelines and we use them if we need to. On this occasion is it possible that we used them more than we should have. If so sorry....

Some people tried to gate-keep by trolling the article relentlessly in the hope that they would force us to 'take it down' - that is gate-keeping and we don't allow people to control the site, for the wrong reasons if we can possibly help it. This is because we are anti-authoritarian ARE* biased,and we try as hard as we can to live by the mission statement of the site. we do not stand for attacks on activists - we stand for joined-up activism and diversity of tactics.

*"Inherent in the mainstream corporate media is a strong bias towards Capitalism's power structures, and it is an important tool in propagating these structures around the globe. While the mainstream media conceal their manifold biases and alignments, we clearly state our position. Indymedia UK does not attempt to take an objective and impartial standpoint: Indymedia UK clearly states its subjectivity."

If you, like us, are serious about a better world where all humans and animals run free together, in harmony - free of the horrors of this evil system with its capitalist infrastructure, military Industrial complex, factory farms and abhorrent authoritarian fascist ideology, then you are welcome to stick around, learn more about us, and help us to start growing a better world.

If you have sympathy for fascist ideology, and this disgusting system that enslaves our minds, our bodies and the animals, you're almost certainly in the wrong place and not really welcome until you start thinking for yourselves.......

Hopefully the bun-fight about whether fascists should in any way be welcomed into the movement is closer to being resolved, with some biased input from us. Comments about moderation will continue to be hidden and if you're genuine then use the lists. Comments which moderators feel are outside the 'spirit' of Indymedia uk (whatever that is) will continue to be hidden.

because we ARE biased and we really do give a fuck.

love and rage (and fuck the fash)

- Homepage:

Veganism is for everyone.

12.01.2014 14:16

If someone is pro-life they should be pro-life for animals as well, if they are pro-choice they should be for the animals' choice. If they are anti-racist they should be anti-racist for the animal races, if they are racist and believe in racial separation they should be for allowing animals their separation from the human race. If someone is capitalist and believes in the freedom of contract they should allow animals their freedom, if they are socialist they should see animals as part of the oppressed class to be liberated. If someone is religious they should see animals as Gods creatures and if they are atheists they should see that we are all from the same evolutionary family. If someone is a feminist they should oppose the rape of dairy cows, if they are patriarchal then they should oppose the undignified murder of male calves in the same dairy system. If someone is a pacifist non-violence includes animals, if they are for violence then animals are innocents to defend. Almost any position on human issues leads back to a pro-animal one. People from practically any background of human thought can advocate for animals. We need them all if we are to reach everyone and create a vegan world.

Non-Humans First Declaration Supporters Page
- Homepage:

@Non-Humans First Declaration Supporters Page

12.01.2014 19:53

You forgot something. What about if you are a nazi, like some your very own friends and associates are in fact, what do they do?


Yes sign on at Farce Book

12.01.2014 20:13

So we can log your details


Importance of human fist in AR movement, it'll always be there!

13.01.2014 22:00

@Paul Vegan Anarchist. Thanks for an excellent explanation on the relevance of the human fist. Many of us who went to support our sorely missed friend anti-fascist animal rights activists Barry horne gave it the fist to the judge in court as he was sentenced 18 years.

@indymods, thanks for your clarification above we know you are on the same page, cheers!


@Lesley, so?

14.01.2014 18:59

@Lesley dove, can you explain what's happening, I don't have facebook account just heard all rumors? really worried

Pixie Twixie

@ everyone

06.02.2014 14:38

When are all of you going to stop this "in house" fighting, attacks, pathetic blogs, spreading lies and crap that is causing so much damage to the movement and decent activists, groups and causes??

Why dont you use your time you sit and keyboard warrior on here, on REAL issues like time spent on animal rights causes??

When is one particular so called "activist" is going to stop his hate campaigns??

When will you put the animals first??

We are all supposed to be on the same f,,ing side!!

Its shameful the movement has become how it is now, its ridiculed and damaged by these kids who have helped ruin it.

Its so shameful that certain people are causing so much damage, and when will people wake up to this??

"Hi All.

I am writing this to ask you all to knock it on the head. This trolling has to stop the personal insults and wild accusations also have to stop. it is not helping the animals we are meant to be fighting for.

This war of words has been bitter and has resulted in a lot of heated and while eye accusations being flung about like confetti. I think its time we all took stock looked at ourself and took ourself away from indymedia and this tread.

I think if any new activists saw this thread they would either laugh or be ashamed. its time to end this trolling and the mud slinging.

We have to get new activists on board not turn them away with bitter old arguments."

Proctor says this??? This is a laugh, hes caused most of this and as usual from him,shows what a hypocrite he really is!!

He slams people for supporting racism, but has racists on his freinds list!!

And some of you really need to give your heads a shake, and grow up!

“When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.”

Fiona Munro

Zip it munro

24.02.2014 15:21

You took your time to comment munro. why don't you go back to defending your fascist mate neilson defending fash and racists is what you do aint it !

proctor to munro

Racists have no place

09.03.2014 13:39

As a vegan for the past 22 years and former co-author of various articles with Lesley Dove, I want to make my position clear. I am very much in favour of the goal of a vegan world where humans do not use animals for food, clothing, sport or other purposes. However, I see no sense in expecting people, whatever their ethnic origin, to "put aside" their objection to racism in working for this.

I believe that it is counter-productive to expect people of colour (and white anti-racists) to hold hands with racists in the interests of a fake unity. I do not believe that we can successfully promote veganism whilst accepting prejudice within our own ranks. We must exclude racists if we are to be seen as rational, fair and accepting of new vegans from all backgrounds and walks of life.

Racism is not something that should be ignored. The working towards the goal of a vegan world must incorporate the elimination of racism and other forms of prejudice if it is to succeed.

Katharine A Gilchrist

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