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DSEI - my view

Jennifer | 15.07.2005 13:32 | DSEi 2005 | Anti-militarism | London

An opinion on the DSEI exhibition

I have noticed a couple of recent contributions here concerning the DSEI exhibition that's running in September. I didn't know much about it so I did a web search. I am amazed to see how open they are with all their information, I expected a shadowy organisation working from a PO Box with no details of who would be attending instead they publish their full details with contact email and telephone number and a detailed list of all those exhibiting.

I also noticed how those who are objecting to the event are the opposite, a website "calling" for things but no names, contact details or even an address.

It also seems to me that armies, the police etc need to buy equipment so why shouldn't those companies who sell it have a place to exhibit ?

Obviously this post of mine will attract a critical response but perhaps before you flame me you might consider what your life would be like if we didn't have our soldiers to protect us

Jennifer

Comments

Hide the following 21 comments

My view

15.07.2005 14:37

I dont support the DSEI event or your idea that soldiers protect us but I do subscribe to the point you have made about those protesting about DSEI. Like Dissent in Scotland recently there are a number of organisations which we know nothing about but which make money out of protest.

More accountability is needed. Public meetings were held before the G8 and desicions made however those desicions were ignored and a small cabal of "senior" people made desicions on behalf of others. The so called 'horizontal approach' was ignored.

Protest at DSEI 2005 is a chance for some people to prove their credibility

what money was made?

15.07.2005 15:48

what money was made out of the protests? You can't make accusations without some evidence.

lets talk

15.07.2005 16:28

To the first poster:

Sorry but I disagree that police and armies protect 'us'. They torture, contain and kill 'us' all over the world. They protect private capital, a destructive system and powerful rich people.

Also, Im not sure what your on about the anti-dsei campaign? On the website (which is

http://www.dsei.org) they have an email address, a discussion email list, a phone number and a postal address. There is also a list of all the supporting groups who also have their own contact details on the web etc. So what do you mean?

To the second poster:

Im in a local group of Dissent!. Many people have made comments similar to yours, so Im thinking there must be something in it, though this is not the experience I have had within this network. I agree there are problems and the network has not been entirely 'non-heirarchic' at all times. But I honestly cannot think of better ways of doing things. However, now Post-G8, I want to have these discussions and see if we can improve these types of networks, particularly in the run up to Dsei.
With this in mind I wondered if you (or others with real concrete critisms or suggestions how to improve the non-heirarchy etc of these networks) would contact me by email to discuss it a little? Paticularly specific things that have made you feel this, I can think of some possible examples but not that many and not that bad, so wondered which things you were refering to.
Also any suggestions you have to improve these networks?
Lastly, I really dont understand your comment about groups 'making money out of protest'. As far as I understand we are heavily in debt, so I really dont know what you mean? Please could you explain?

As someone in this network, I really am interested, so hope to hear from you,

Love n Rage.

interested

not the whole story

15.07.2005 16:29

Jennifer:

I too believe that police and armed forces are sadly necessary at this point in time and that they need to be equipped. That isn't to say I support vrutality and the carpet bombing of civillians.

However, perhaps you should consider that fact that most of the arms in the world aren't being manufactured for "peace keeping" in fact they are being manufactured to perpetuate dispicable regimes, brutal civil wars etc etc etc.

Also, bear in mind that some of the ordinance for sale is designed to mame, not to kill outright (bogs down enemy resources) and that weapons such as cluster bombs account for a lot of civillian casualties.

I'm not totally up on the current situation but last time I looked at arms sales the UK was producing and supplying torture instruments to places like Saudi. In fact, they were making them in the factory at the end of my street.

You show more brains than a lot of people who post here by being brave enough to come in post your queries.

mr magoo

But...

15.07.2005 16:41

OK, the question of whether or not we should have armed forces at all can be debated ad infinitum. But conventions like DSEi simply escalate an already dangerous problem. It is, of course, in the best financial interests of the companies involved to sell as many weapons as they can, the direct effect of this being a worldwide arms proliferation and thus more opportunities for destabilisation. As someone has said before, people will die as a direct result of this convention happening which, in my view, makes it more than worthwhile to try and stop it.

Josh
mail e-mail: josh_hall@btinternet.com

Best. Troll. Ever.

15.07.2005 16:41

comic book guy

Ironic eh?

15.07.2005 17:21

Sorry forgot to give my email address - ironic eh? :)

Its

lovenrage@hotmail.co.uk

Cheers.

Interested
mail e-mail: lovenrage@hotmail.co.uk

What a shame

15.07.2005 17:21

Jennifer,

Firstly thanks for raising some issues that are of interest to a number of people. I too am uncomfortable with the "all arms sales are wrong" line taken by some. Clearly defence forces need equipment.

What is most annoying about this is that it took only four posts before somebody screamed "Troll". When will people get in into their heads that views that are not the same as the majority of IM posters does not mean an indivdual is trolling.

Embrace debate, discuss, argue, talk, agree. Move on

Luke

awful, awful, awful

15.07.2005 17:39

awful. if u believe this nonsense, please go and read bbc, guardian etc and mak eyour comments their

Burger

Re Einstein's posting

15.07.2005 20:42

"Like Dissent in Scotland recently there are a number of organisations which we know nothing about but which make money out of protest"

How long have you been studying logic then? Here's a clue to your fallacy :-

If there are organisations that you know nothing about how do you then qualify the statement that these 'organisations' make money out of protest?

mark rpen

<> : fannybaws

16.07.2005 00:05

Fuxake. Who has made money from the G8 protests? No cunt I know, except you count the cops with their shiny new riot gear. I know people who put a pile of their own cash in with only a vague expectation of getting what they're owed back.

You can keep repeating this shite about Dissent handing out fuckloads of cash to a cadre of professional activists but it doesn't make it any truer. The money was distributed from open meetings through the same consensus process other decisions went through.

And if disrupting DSEi, the interface of the military and capitalist systems isn't worthwhile I don't know what is, Jennifer. Bitching about the fact you can't read the "organisers'" names and addresses off of the website seems to be missing several points.

minted from protesting the g8

Disillusioned

16.07.2005 08:49

There’s no bloody point going to DSEI to protest, its being arranged by the same public school educated half-wits that tried to arrange a protest at last years Farnborough Air Show. They picked the Family day as their “Day of Action” and apart from lots of families, who had a great time watching the planes, only a hand full of Over privileged plumy voiced public Schoolios Turned up

Disillusioned

What's wrong with DSEi

16.07.2005 10:47

The DSEi arms fair is not organised for the Police or armed forces to get equipment they need. It's not organised for defence or even attack reasons. It's organised for profit.

An arms dealer will sell to anyone who has the cash to buy. Some arms dealers may be selling to one side of an armed conflict whilst others at DSEi might be selling to the other side. The end result of such is more carnage for those engaged in the battles with no overall aim of who should win or lose, who is right or wrong.

That kind of makes it pointless except there is a point. The point is for arms dealers to make a lot money.

If this was about defence then we would certainly not be using this to export arms to other countries who might, at the next change of government, might be our enemies.

Given the state of the world at the this time in history humans that spend their time dreaming up new ways to kill and maim other humans simply to make lots of cash really are a sorry lot that many people will want to stop.

steve

Marketing not Sales

16.07.2005 14:26

DSEI, and other similar arms fairs like Farnborough, are primarily a showcase, not a point of sale. I am not aware of any actual orders being taken at these events. At least they are open, and at least in the US and UK procurement for these death machines is highly proscribed and subject to intense scrutiny. I used to work indirectly for a defence company until I saw the light, and these events were always treated as opportunities for a free holiday on company time combined with the opportunity to gladhand the military or their advisors. There were always questions over the value of attending - the UK organisation I worked for dropped out of the French equivalent exhibition, for example - because the feeling was that the stand had to be exceptional ie v expensive. Incidentally, the view from within the dark towers was that demonstrations were a nuisance rather than a help to form policy ie had absolutely zero impact on the companies attending. If you want to change the way we spend money in the UK, lobby the people who give out the money - "defence" spending is dropping, but we can always encourage it to drop more. Treasury, MoD, your mp, mps on the Defence Select Committee...

radjel

More Indytroll Bollockheads

16.07.2005 14:28

Disillusioned- your'e just a spoilt dickhead fucking troll. If you don't like any 'organisers' - so fucking what. Are you another fat little consumer baby then who has to have everything laid on for them. Course you fucking are you prick. There is nobody stopping you doing your own thing at DSEI or any fucking where else for that matter. Having also been involved in one DSEI group if you said those things to my face I would kick your fucking pathetic spoilt teeth out. Consequences Wanker.

If you still want to go...

16.07.2005 19:05

Then I am trying to get an affinity group together in the NE Lincolnshire region. Not just for DESi but for future actions too.

I have to agree that I found it quite difficult to "get involved" with the G8 before I actually got in my van and drove to Edinburgh. There was lots of talk and ideas and noise but nothing seemed to be set in concrete. turning up on Thursday in search of "the G8 campsite" proved interesting.

Perhaps it is my fault for living 4 hours away from any of the meeting venues?

Anyway, back to the point, I think that DESi is well worth our efforts, if this isn't then I don't know what is?

Don't forget to email if you live in NE Lincolnshire!

Martin
mail e-mail: martinhurton@aol.com

cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel winston

16.07.2005 21:18

m. Had a hard day have you?

.

16.07.2005 21:45

FUCKING thing.

FUCKING computer!!!!!!!!!

I just wrote fucking shitloads and it fucking crashes.

FUCK YOU

Protest

17.07.2005 10:19

I worked for US defence giant Lockheed Martin (well I worked for a company that was taken over by them- then I left). I spoke with the saleman who attend these shows not just in the UK but overseas. Most of them are ex-military (they have the best contacts) and the protests make no difference whatsover. I asked them if if had made them think about what they did and they were incredulous at my question.

Because they come from a military background they view the equipment as just part of life, protestors are dismissed as "hippies" "the great unwashed" or "the usual nutters". Mostly if they do react to them it's to laugh at them. Sorry but that is the case.

former Lockheed Martin worker

DAMN, we haven't made those people think!

17.07.2005 11:35

Bugger!! They think we're a bunch of hippies?

Oh shit! I care so much. I'm so shocked and surprised. I think I'll just give up now.

Seriously, I don't think the point of the protests is to make these people think. The point is to raise public awareness, build the movement (specifically against the arms trade but also more generally for global justice) and put pressure on the authorities who allow this event to take place.

We all know the generals have no conscience. That's nothing new. So if you were trying to dishearten us then I'm afraid you've failed utterly.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that the more militant protests will aim to DISRUPT this event. That may not fuck with their consciences but will certainly fuck with their smooth running of events.

time for a shower methinks

Do not misinterpret me

17.07.2005 13:30

I was not "trying to dishearten" you - why would I (unless you are one of those IM contributors who buys into the idea that the security services are regular contributors here !) What I was trying to do what illustrate how actions of the type being proposed for DSEI do not work. In 2003 there were some who felt that handing out leaflets and talking to those attending would as effective action. For others it was the idea that the event could in some way be disrupted by lock -ons to trains, blocking off deliveries etc. The reality is none of these approaches are effective and have more to do with the egos of some of those involved rather than an expectation of change (shades of the G8 protest anyone ?)

What will prevent arms sales is political pressure and an understanding of why governments allow arms fairs like DSEI to continue. Walking around with heads in the sands and maintaining how you are going to "bring it to a halt" is just bonkers.

The people involved in the arms industry are not in my experience bloated monsters keen to sell guns to the next passing baby killer, rather than are mostly former military people who honestly feel they are making a contribution to the defence of the UK and its allies. We may think them wrong but to try and portray them as anything different is counter productive.