If this is true then I must have commited a criminal act at least once a week for the last 20 years or so.
I'm well into local community based recycling as a way of reducing my usage of finite resources so I rarely cycle past a skip without glancing at the contents. This evening I was looking into a skip containing some huge kitchen appliances. I was lifting them slightly to see if there was anything more useful underneath - there wasn't and I was about to pass it by - when 2 cops from a car walked over to me. The agressive one asked me why I was looking in the skip. Well, blindingly obvious or what - to see if there's anything worth having. He didn't like this and asked if I'd sought permission from the skip hirer. I had to politely remind him that everything placed in a skip, technically belongs to the owner of the skip - A J Bull or whoever - not the hirer. To this he said if I took anything out of a skip then I'd be charged with theft which left me flabbergasted. I can't really imagine A J Bull complaining much or pressing charges if one of their skips returns to the waste transfer station slightly lighter.
Presumably this recent post from which I freely admit I benefitted by a few sticks of memory (thanks fellow skip diver!):
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/09/408492.html
was blatant incitement.
He then searched me and my bag under section 1 PACE, on the grounds that I was acting suspiciously because I was "looking in the skip". Well to act suspiciously, I figure one has to actually know that you're about to commit some kind of an offence but there was no point in arguing with this nazi who was as bad as the worst of the cops doing searches at climate camp. His companion seemed slightly embarrassed by the whole procedure. This seems such an utter waste of police time that I'm left really wound up by it all. I'm now presumably occupying disk space on the police computer under dodgy-geezer-to-be-constantly-watched-in-future category. I was made to look like some serious criminal in front of the passers-by. I was threatened with arrest for contemplating reducing the country's colossal landfill tonnage. Over the years, I've pulled out loads of lead and other toxic metal rich computer bits from skips out of which I've built quite a few working PCs. Only last week and quite a few times over the years, I've relieved other skips of about half a tonne at a time of old roof tiles which are ideal for containing the raised beds on my allotment. Since they're made from concrete, the carbon footprint of all those tiles - should I have caused new ones to be made for me - is something like 20 tonnes of CO2. The landfill tax is about £16/tonne, so I've also saved each of those previous skip hirers effectively about £8 each as I created extra space in their skips for more building rubbish. Has anyone else experienced anything as daft as this? I'm herewith fessing to more acts of theft than I can possibly remember. Is there a lawyer offering advice in the house? Would there only be a case if the skip owner pressed charges?
Presumably this recent post from which I freely admit I benefitted by a few sticks of memory (thanks fellow skip diver!):
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/09/408492.html was blatant incitement.
He then searched me and my bag under section 1 PACE, on the grounds that I was acting suspiciously because I was "looking in the skip". Well to act suspiciously, I figure one has to actually know that you're about to commit some kind of an offence but there was no point in arguing with this nazi who was as bad as the worst of the cops doing searches at climate camp. His companion seemed slightly embarrassed by the whole procedure. This seems such an utter waste of police time that I'm left really wound up by it all. I'm now presumably occupying disk space on the police computer under dodgy-geezer-to-be-constantly-watched-in-future category. I was made to look like some serious criminal in front of the passers-by. I was threatened with arrest for contemplating reducing the country's colossal landfill tonnage. Over the years, I've pulled out loads of lead and other toxic metal rich computer bits from skips out of which I've built quite a few working PCs. Only last week and quite a few times over the years, I've relieved other skips of about half a tonne at a time of old roof tiles which are ideal for containing the raised beds on my allotment. Since they're made from concrete, the carbon footprint of all those tiles - should I have caused new ones to be made for me - is something like 20 tonnes of CO2. The landfill tax is about £16/tonne, so I've also saved each of those previous skip hirers effectively about £8 each as I created extra space in their skips for more building rubbish. Has anyone else experienced anything as daft as this? I'm herewith fessing to more acts of theft than I can possibly remember. Is there a lawyer offering advice in the house? Would there only be a case if the skip owner pressed charges?
Comments
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rubbish law
16.09.2008 06:38
There is I believe a civil offence under s.60 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 which is worth looking at in relation to taking stuff out of skips, but of course the police wouldn't have anything to do with that - since they're not civil :o) - and, given that no one appeared to have been making a complaint about you looking in the skip here - this is almost certainly a feeble attempt to meet their arrest targets. As anyone who's hired a skip will tell you, the main problem is not people taking stuff out, but putting their own junk in, filling up the waste space that the hirer has paid for.
I know that once a report of alleged theft has been made, the police can use this to continue an investigation even after the complainant has decided that they'd rather not press charges after all. I don't know of any cases where the police have taken it upon themselves to protect the waste 'property' of a skip owner, but there might well be some. After all, they need those arrests, and investigating a skip diver for 'theft' is a whole lot easier than investigating crimes with victims.
Theft is considered a very serious crime, which means that if you do ever get charged with it you can elect for a jury trial if you want. I've been told that there may be some argument to be had over ownership of the stuff in skips, but I haven't checked this out myself. What I do know is that to make a charge of theft stick, there are a number of conditions that have to be met.
The important bit is the basic definition of theft under S. 1 (1) of the 1968 Theft Act:
(1) A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it...
So, the prosecution has to show that what was taken was 'property belonging to another', that the taker 'appropriated' the property, behaved 'dishonestly', and that there was an intention to 'permanently deprive'. The Act goes on to define what these various terms mean, and there's a whole load of case law to look at too.
I would say, with no specialist legal knowledge at all - so hope that anyone who knows better will contradict - that any defence in such a case, once the matter of ownership has been sorted out, would be around the questions of honesty and permanent deprivation. If you honestly believe that what you are doing is not theft, then it probably isn't (have a look at the case law here). Permanent deprivation, of course, doesn't make any sense at all in respect of rubbish which is headed for landfill. And even if what you're taking is theoretically recyclable or reclaimable, you can still argue that it is a basic principle under the 'waste hierarchy' model that re-use should always take priority over recycling, reclamation, energy recovery and disposal. All those things can happen later on, but for now you are re-using, as we all must do if the planet is to be saved.
You can never tell what might happen in a court of law, but I really can't see a jury finding a defendant guilty in these circumstances, plus it's the sort of story that the mainstream media will love and where they will definitely take the side of the defendant, and even sort of understand the issues, so there's an opportunity to raise public awareness about re-use, recycling, the environment and dodgy policing practices along the way.
Happy skipping!
vg
mass arrest
16.09.2008 07:56
Mass action mass arerest is what is needed, to show the media what silly little people we have in our society,and who can shop at the local supermarkey with out a thought for there actions,
Davey
Police twats
16.09.2008 09:10
Pete
me too....
16.09.2008 10:30
bindiver
"theft by finding"
16.09.2008 11:09
@tp
legal clarification
16.09.2008 13:37
Anyway, though it's daft it is categorically illegal to take from skips, therefore the police can do you for it without reference to anyone else. I think you're right about once it's in skips it belongs to the skip owner not the person chucking stuff in it, even if hired. But that doesn't mean the cops will know this, as you've described, so you could say you've got permission from the skip hirer.
Searches cannot happen just "on suspicion" - it has to be on suspicion of something, ie offensive weapons, drugs, going equipped for burglary, and the suspicion cannot be that you look/where acting dodgily - it has to be that you've got a ripped packet of skins sticking out your pocket or similar. When they search you you do not have to give your name ever, except if you're driving a motor vehicle, they arrest you and take you to the police station (and only at the custody desk), or under some anti-social notifiable offences, where they can send you a summons later (but you could argue with them and say you'll only give your details at the cop shop if they want to arrest you).
miner
Recycling is big business!
16.09.2008 14:03
The price of scrap metal has gone through the roof and the police have been alerted to thefts of all sorts of things from manhole covers to railway lines.
If you ever ventured near a dump aka a recycling centre then you'll come across lots of employees who watch over all the people coming to dump stuff. It's all sorted and 'recycled'.
There's big big money in all this, just look at the scrap value of cars now, from 50 quid a couple of years ago to about 200 quid now.
Hope this is a big wakeup call to all the one dimensional environmentalists who can't see the wood for the trees when it comes to big business and capitalism.
wakeup
the rubbish reality
16.09.2008 14:49
The police shouldn't get involved in civil matters (i.e. where they see people contravening the environmental protection act) and they would be well-advised to concentrate on thefts of iron furniture like manhole covers rather than bothering people who are liberating good stuff from skips, especially stuff that won't otherwise get re-used at all.
Who are those one-dimensional environmentalists you're talking about? All the environmentalists I know have a pretty good grasp of what capitalism's all about.
skip and jump